EdI didn't know anything either, but thought I should try to find some basic knowledge to be able to discuss with lutemakers. I feel sure that lute players of the past had far more knowledge than we have today about woods and lute structure and how these affect the sound that they were wanting to achieve. Indeed, some luteplayers, such as Jacques Gautier appear to have been lutemakers, or at least lute designers themselves (he is described as maker of lutes for masques in the "programme" for one masque of the time).
As I understand it Sitka spruce is not equivalent to Bear Claw, but Bear Claw is quite prevalent in that particular species. It seems rather that Bear claw Sika is close in hardness to Adirondak. I have no idea if Adirondak can also have Bear claw, but from what others say, it seems most of it is quite young, in which case this is rather unlikely.
Here is an example of Bear Claw, for those who have probably seen it, but know it by another name:
Horizontal Bear clawhttp://s105.photobucket.com/albums/m215/ag-no3phile/lute%20playing/ soundboard/?action=view¤t=BearClaw1.jpg
Vertical Bear Clawhttp://s105.photobucket.com/albums/m215/ag-no3phile/lute%20playing/ soundboard/?action=view¤t=BearClaw2.jpg
Bear Claw on guitar tablehttp://s105.photobucket.com/albums/m215/ag-no3phile/lute%20playing/ soundboard/?action=view¤t=BearClaw6.png
I know a Baroque Gamba that was made out of the wood of an ancient destroyed Chinese building (while making new roads). The table shows superb Bear claw marks, and one would presume that this would have been from a far eastern variety, so probably not Sitka.
I am looking forward to hearing about how it sounds, and actually just hearing it, on your next CD!
Anthony Le 15 sept. 09 à 15:19, Edward Martin a écrit :
Anthony,Thank you for your reply. The subject of top woods is very interesting, and it is something of which I have little knowledge.I have also read the forums on this subject. I had not known that Sitka spruce is also known as bear claw.Whether the lute will sound rich immediately is not known, but I ought to discover it soon!ed At 04:44 AM 9/15/2009, Anthony Hind wrote:Dear Ed I had a look at what guitar sites said about Adirondack, and it seems "that the chief benefit of using Adirondak Spruce as a top is its stiffness to weight ratio."http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/archive/index.php/ t-51636.htmlPresumably this makes it possible to cut the table thinner, and so its reactions should become faster (similar to what happens with carbon). This is also what Mimmo tells me about spruce treated with salts. The wood becomes much harder, and can be cut thinner. That is also why, Martin Haycock told me he liked to use Bird's eye maple for backs; because it is relatively hard, he can cut it thinner than Sycamore. Incidentally, on the guitar page, there is a tendancy to associate Bearclaw Sitka, with Adirondak, for the same reason. "the qualities of Bearclaw Sitka allow it to be worked to achieve better tone. Due to it's superior stiffness the top can be dimensioned a little thinner (perhaps this isn't done by the "factory" guitar makers?). This should translate into a faster attack transient (an essential characteristic for clean, fast flat picking). If that is what you are looking for, then that would be better." (However, I was also told, "The rather unusual 'bear claw' figure seems to be an irregularity of the annual rings themselves, and as you have seen for yourself, can be very variable. Wood showing this figure seems generally to be stiff andacoustically good, although I do not think especially better than normalwood, and I would rather use it for its decorative qualities, and not assume it wil be superior acoustically." Now, presumably, if Adirondak (or Bear claw Sika) were used as though it were regular European Spruce, it would need far longer running-in. It would presumably show higher resistance to vibration. On the other hand, I read somewhere on a violin page that you do need to accept a fairly long playing-in time; that it is quite easy to make a top that can be run-in quickly, by making it too thin, but then it tends to die early too.However I am sure Daniel will make you a superb Adirondak top,although I rather agree with David, that this does not mean that many lutemakers will swap over to it. I don't think that the very successful experiments with salts loaded spruce tops has lead many lutemakers to try it. The main thing is that you will soon be back playing 11c music, and perhaps we will have another excellent recording like your recent Conradi - Kelner record. Best wishes Anthony Le 15 sept. 09 à 05:45, Edward Martin a écrit :Thanks, David. I fully understand that a new lute (i.e. top, in my case) will notsound as seasoned as an older one, but in this case, I had no option,due to the damage. I have heard that "right out of the box" that Adirondack sounds superb. Are there any on this net who know of an Adirondack spruce top on a lute? ed At 05:49 PM 9/14/2009, David Rastall wrote:Hi Ed, Sorry to hear about your lute. Ouch!! From what I've heard, Adirondack is a good choice for a lute. Apparently it compares favorably with European spruce at its best. Most of the Adirondack spruce was used up during WW 2 in the making of airplanes. But today, the trees that were too young to be used back then are big enough now to be cut down for commercial use.My only reservation is that it might take longer to break in than theother spruces. That's what I've heard from various guitar mavens. Apparently, the pre-war guitars made with Adirondack are just now becoming fully broken in. Because of its quality, availability and price, Adirondack isconsidered the Holy Grail of guitar tops. I think it would work wellon any lute that put it under enough tension. It might not work sowell on a 6 or 8-course ren. lute. It would probably work well as atop for a theorbo.I think you will most likely be the only lutenist ever to play on anAdirondack top! Best, DavidR On Sep 14, 2009, at 1:54 PM, Edward Martin wrote:Dear ones,I had an accident with my 11-course lute 2 months ago; the top was shattered. My instrument is one made by Daniel Larson, and it is 67cm, the Frei C34 design. The lute was firstly made in 1995 as a 7-course Frei, and it was in 1997 converted into an 11-courseFrei. This lute had a most beautiful sound, and I am very fortunateto have recorded my CD "Allemande" on it, as a testament to its gorgeous sound, so I can have this sound to make reference. The instrument is not a total loss, and it is the soundboard where the damage occurred. As it was not repairable, Dan has constructed a new top for it. The original top was made of Italian spruce, but for the replacement, it is made of Adirondack spruce. It is very near completion, and the finish merely needs to be polished (French polish). Sitka, Engelmann, and European spruce varieties are the most commonly used for today's instruments, but I have never heard of Adirondack spruce used for lute tops. Wikipedia makes this description of Adirondack spruce: "Adirondack <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spruce>Spruce aka Red Spruce (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picea_rubens>Picea rubens). This legendary wood that Martin used for its tops throughout its golden years came from the East Coast, from the Southern Mountains into New England and upper New York State. Called both Appalachian and Adirondack spruce, it has a creamy white color. Similar to Sitka, Adirondack responds well to either a light or firm touch. It has more overall resonance than Sitka. Interesting grain color variations makethis another visually desirable top. Adirondack has been unavailable since the mid-1940s. Virgin growth has been (fortunately) preserved in national parks; the rest is all second growth, plentiful but toosmall to be usable for guitar tops until recently. Guitar makers havestarted finding second growth of at least 100 years old that is big enough to be used for tops again. Adirondack is, like Alpine spruce,very expensive and mainly used for top of the range acoustic guitars."I looked at the Martin guitar page, where they state that Adirondackspruce is used on their extreme top-end models. Dan tells me that this wood is very difficult to obtain, but he obviously does have some of it. In talking with some guitar friends, they state it is wide grained, not straight grained; they also tell me it is the absolutely best top wood for guitars, but it is rare, as availability makes it so scarce.Mine is very tight and straight-grained. If one were to compare itsappearance, it mostly resembles German spruce, in my estimation.Dan has made 2 batches of 4 modern guitars; in each batch, he used Italian spruce on 3, and Adirondack in 1. He rates the best resultswere startling; in both batches, the Adirondack top yielded the best result in all areas - volume, complexity of sound, clearness, singing trebles, and depth.Obviously, I am very excited to hear what the final result is on myold lute. My question is: has anyone on the list constructed, owned, or playeda lute with an Adirondack top? This very well may be the first lutewith this top, as I have never heard of it prior to this project. Thanks! ed Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htmlNo virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.98/2371 - Release Date: 09/14/09 17:52:00Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edsluteNo virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.comVersion: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.98/2371 - Release Date: 09/14/09 17:52:00Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute
