Thank you Ed and Mathias,
I certainly agree with Tim that, on the basis of style, the extant
works in the large Prague MSs and the Amsterdam publication are
unlikely to have been composed by the elder Saint-Luc born in 1616. But
I don't know why he proposed that they were the work of Jacques'
younger son, Laurent, rather than Jacques-Alexandre (born 1663) - I'll
ask him. It's certainly an area that needs much more scholarly digging
rather than simple assertion.
The elder may, of course, have lived to a ripe old age but not, I
suspect, as a practicising musician: one modern note I've seen has him
travelling to Berlin in 1700 (aged 84) to take part in the marriage of
Princess Louise of Brandenburg and Prince Frederick of Hesse-Cassel!
MH
--- On Wed, 23/3/11, Edward Martin <e...@gamutstrings.com> wrote:
From: Edward Martin <e...@gamutstrings.com>
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: PS to: Jacques de Saint-Luc
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>, "Baroque lute
Dmth" <baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Wednesday, 23 March, 2011, 22:29
Dear Martyn and all,
I had some correspondence with Tim Crawford 15 years ago, and I was
asking him about the notes written on Stephen Stubbs' CD of Saint
Luc. Here are copies of this correspondence. No He did not live
that long, as there were 2 Saint Luc's. Here is what Tim wrote, 15
years ago:
><<<<Oh dear, oh dear! The composer in question was probably Jacques
de St Luc's
>son, Laurent (again, this is from memory). The music is *obviously*
from a
>different generation than the 2 or 3 pieces by JdeSL that survive; it
was
>probably composed in the early 18th century, and is in the
proto-galant
>style we associate with de Visee, Losy and others rather than
Gaultier,
>Pinel, Dufaut etc who were JdeSL's contemporaries.>>>>>
>
>Dear Tim,
>
> I would not challenge your knowledge of this - I am a performer, not
a
>scholar in these areas. Yes, the style does seem later to me, as
well. I
>was merely quoting what the liner notes said - they were written by
Manuel
>Couvreur and Philippe Vendrix, translated by Celia Skrine. Included
in the
>notes, on page 9, is the following:
>
> "On 15 June, 1658, in the Cathedral of Sainte-Gudule in Brussels,
>Saint-Luc married Isabelle de Lagrenee, possibly a descendant of
Pierre
>Lagrenee, an oboist and violinist in the court band of King Henri IV
of
>France. He had several children by her including two sons,
>Jacques-Alexandre, baptised at Sainte-Gudule on June 8, 1663, and
Laurent,
>baptised on 10 August 1669, but , contrary to what most musicologists
claim,
>there is no justification for supposing that they undertook any kind
of
>musical activity. The last documented evidence of the presence of
Saint-Luc
>and his family in Brussels dates from 14 August 1684."
>
>On page 11, it states," Amongst the pieces with titles which
contribute to a
>picture of the composers last years, the latest date is one that
>commemorates the capture of Lille in 1708. Saint-Luc was by then 92
years
>old and must have died shortly afterwards. Certainly there is no
trace of
>any later work"
>
>I agree with you Tim - 92 years old is incredible, for that century!
>
>The notes also state that there are 2 main sources for his solo lute
works,
>in carefully copied manuscripts:
>
>ms.no. S.m. 1586 in the Austrian National Library at Vienna, and
>
>ms.no. X.L.b.210 in the library of Prague University.
>
>The last paragraph, page 12, states:
>
>"To Jacques de Saint-Luc undoubtedly belongs the credit for
transmitting the
>heritage of French lute music to a new generation of Viennese
lutenists, the
>last exponents of an instrument which was destined soon to disappear
from
>the musical scene."
>
Thanks for passing this on. I am *extremely* skeptical that the St Luc
of
these MSS (and the several more in the same hand which have parts for
violin
and bass) is the same as the well-documented Jacques (about whom a book
was
written early this century). There is *no hint* of music in an earlier
style
in the MSS.
As for the final paragraph, I couldn't disagree more with the authors.
If
they believe that the Viennese lutenists were "the last exponents of an
instrument which was destined soon to disappear from the musical
scene," then
they either don't regard Weiss as a significant figure, or are
pig-ignorant.
Dufaut and Mouton both played in 'Austria' and were far greater
composers
and, probably, players. I suspect that J Gallot in his 'long journey
abroad'
(see the intro to the Gallot edition) also visited Vienna. As far as I
know
St Luc caused a stir at a wedding in Berlin in 1700, and there are one
or
two other references, but nothing to suggest he was as highly-respected
as
any of these three.
I suspect Philippe Vendrix (who knows a thing or two) just read this
too
quickly.
It is, I'm afraid, the result of misplaced scholarly caution. Because
(and
do not have the facts to challenge this) there is no evidence that
JdeSL's
sons were lutenists, and we have no evidence of JdeSL's date of death,
the music *must* be by him. This simply does not follow - it is a 'non
sequitur'. It could be by a cousin, an undocumented son or someone
impersonating any one of them. One has to take the scholarly risk of
looking
at the music, the MSS and their stylistic features and making a
*judgement*!
Not hard in this case.
(Steve Stubbs, a musician I greatly respect, asked me some years ago to
think
about doing some liner notes for him but I never heard any
more.)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I hope this helps. I trust Tim's scholarship in this matter.
ed
At 11:25 AM 3/23/2011, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
> By chance I've just looked for any recorded music of Saint-Luc
and saw
> that there's a CD by a 'Jacques-Alexandre de Saint Luc' with
> dates given as 1663 - c.1715. I have no knowledge of the source
of
> this information but it would certainly fit with the speculation
of two
> individuals with the same, or similar,names. The players are
Jacques
> Vandeville oboe and Daniel Fournier lute (and theorbo!).
>
> MH
> --- On Wed, 23/3/11, Martyn Hodgson <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
>
> From: Martyn Hodgson <[2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: Jacques de Saint-Luc
> To: "Baroque lute Dmth" <[3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Wednesday, 23 March, 2011, 15:47
>
>
> The dates of this composer are generally given as 1616 - 1710
which
> seems a phenomenal life span for the time and even more so when
his
> extant lute works seem to be in the style of the early decades of
the
> 18th century (even down to fashionable
> doubling of the top and bottom line by strings) which would have
made
> him well into his 90s when these works were composed....... His
> compositional style also seems much closer to Austro-germanic
composers
> like Logy, von Radolt, Hintherleithner et al who flourished around
the
> turn of the century being predominantly in a polarised treble and
bass
> manner.
>
> I can find little about this shadowy figure but am being drawn to
the
> speculation that there may have been two different composers with
the
> same name (father and son/nephew perhaps). Can anybody shed
further
> light? Perhaps I've missed a paper?
>
> One clue ought to be the names of pieces such as 'La Prise de
> Barcellonne', which might suggest a date of 1705 or 1714 but could
be
> some earlier investment, or 'Le defaittes des Francois par les
Allemand
> Devant Turin' which suggests 1703. Again I find it hard to believe
that
> the same San Luc was composing such 'modern' programmatic music at
such
> a ripe old age.
>
> MH
>
> --
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
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Edward Martin
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3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=e...@gamutstrings.com
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