Thank you Mathias.
Yes, the hand of these notes (on Wien 1586) is in the old fashioned
German longhand cursive script Kurrentschrift and there's even an
English quote at the bottom (ending ' - to hell he goes'!) followed by
what I take to be the initials of whoever added Walther's (1732 )
notes: am. a. (?)
The notes also refer to Roger's Amsterdam publication (in particular
mentioning the arrangements are for flote or Hautbois with Basse)
amongst other things . Have you a translation (into English) of these?
- if so I'd be grateful for a copy. I guess these notes could have
been added anytime from the late 19th century up to the early 20th
when, as I understand, Kurrentschrift was superseded by something
called Sutterlin. Do we know when this closer to modern hand became
general?
MH
--- On Thu, 24/3/11, mathias.roe...@t-online.de
<mathias.roe...@t-online.de> wrote:
From: mathias.roe...@t-online.de <mathias.roe...@t-online.de>
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: PS to: Jacques de
Saint-Luc
To: "Baroque lute Dmth" <baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Thursday, 24 March, 2011, 9:00
> The elder may, of course, have= lived to a ripe old age but not, I
> suspect, as a practicising m= usician: one modern note I've seen
has
him
> travelling to Berlin = in 1700 (aged 84) to take part in the
marriage
of
> Princess Louis= e of Brandenburg and Prince Frederick of
Hesse-Cassel!
The ms. in Vienna has notes in German kurrentschrift on the first
page,
= excerpts from Walther's lexicon, or so I seem to remember. The gig
in
Berli= n is mentioned there.
Mathias
> MH
> --- On Wed, 23/3/11, Edward Martin <ed@gamutstrings.= com> wrote:
> From: Edward Martin <[1]e...@gamutstrings.com><= br /> > Subject:
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: PS to: Jacques de Saint-Luc
&g= t; To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>, "Baroque
lute
Dm= th"
> <[3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Wedne= sday, 23 March, 2011, 22:29
>
> Dear Martyn and all,
> I had some correspondence with Tim Crawford 15 years ago, and I
was=
> asking him about the notes written on Stephen Stubbs' CD of Sai=
nt
Luc.
> Here are copies of this correspondence. No He did not = live that
> long, as there were 2 Saint Luc's. Here is what Tim w= rote, 15
years
> ago:
> ><<<<Oh dear, oh d= ear! The composer in question was probably
Jacques
> de St Luc's > >son, Laurent (again, this is from memory). The
music
is *obvi= ously*
> from a
> >different generation than the 2 or = 3 pieces by JdeSL that
survive;
it
> was
> >probably c= omposed in the early 18th century, and is in the
> proto-galant
> >style we associate with de Visee, Losy and others rather than<=
br
/> > Gaultier,
> >Pinel, Dufaut etc who were JdeSL's cont= emporaries.>>>>>
> >
> >Dear Tim,
> >
> > I would not challenge your knowledge of this = - I am a
performer,
not
> a
> >scholar in these areas.= Yes, the style does seem later to me, as
> well. I
> &g= t;was merely quoting what the liner notes said - they were
written by
= > Manuel
> >Couvreur and Philippe Vendrix, translated by Ce= lia Skrine.
Included
> in the
> >notes, on page 9, is= the following:
> >
> > "On 15 June, 1658, in the = Cathedral of Sainte-Gudule in
Brussels,
> >Saint-Luc married Is= abelle de Lagrenee, possibly a descendant
of
> Pierre
> &= gt;Lagrenee, an oboist and violinist in the court band of King
Henri IV
> of
> >France. He had several children by her including= two sons,
> >Jacques-Alexandre, baptised at Sainte-Gudule on J= une 8, 1663,
and
> Laurent,
> >baptised on 10 August 1= 669, but , contrary to what most
musicologists
> claim,
>= >there is no justification for supposing that they undertook any
kind > of
> >musical activity. The last documented evidence= of the presence
of
> Saint-Luc
> >and his family in B= russels dates from 14 August 1684."
> >
> >On page = 11, it states," Amongst the pieces with titles which
> contribute = to a
> >picture of the composers last years, the latest date is= one that
> >commemorates the capture of Lille in 1708. Saint-= Luc was by
then
92
> years
> >old and must have died s= hortly afterwards. Certainly there is
no
> trace of
> &g= t;any later work"
> >
> >I agree with you Tim - 92= years old is incredible, for that
century!
> >
> >= The notes also state that there are 2 main sources for his solo
lute
= > works,
> >in carefully copied manuscripts:
> >=
> >ms.no. S.m. 1586 in the Austrian National Library at Vienna= ,
and >
> >ms.no. X.L.b.210 in the library of Prague Univers= ity.
> >
> >The last paragraph, page 12, states:
> >
> >"To Jacques de Saint-Luc undoubtedly belongs t= he credit for
> transmitting the
> >heritage of French= lute music to a new generation of Viennese
> lutenists, the
= > >last exponents of an instrument which was destined soon to
disapp=
ear
> from
> >the musical scene."
> >
> Thanks for passing this on. I am *extremely* skeptical that the St
L=
uc
> of
> these MSS (and the several more in the same han= d which have
parts
for
> violin
> and bass) is the same a= s the well-documented Jacques (about whom
a
> book was
> = written early this century). There is *no hint* of music in an
earlier
> style
> in the MSS.
> As for the final paragraph, = I couldn't disagree more with the
authors.
> If
> they be= lieve that the Viennese lutenists were "the last
exponents
of
> an= instrument which was destined soon to disappear from the
musical
>= ; scene," then
> they either don't regard Weiss as a significant f= igure, or are
> pig-ignorant.
> Dufaut and Mouton both pl= ayed in 'Austria' and were far greater
> composers
> and,= probably, players. I suspect that J Gallot in his 'long
journey
>= abroad'
> (see the intro to the Gallot edition) also visited Vien= na. As
far
as I
> know
> St Luc caused a stir at a weddin= g in Berlin in 1700, and there
are
one
> or
> two other r= eferences, but nothing to suggest he was as
> highly-respected as<= br /> > any of these three.
> I suspect Philippe Vendrix (who k= nows a thing or two) just read
this
> too
> quickly.
> It is, I'm afraid, the result of misplaced scholarly caution.
Becaus=
e
> (and
> do not have the facts to challenge this) there= is no evidence
that
> JdeSL's
> sons were lutenists, and= we have no evidence of JdeSL's date of
> death, the music *must*= be by him. This simply does not follow -
it
is
> a 'non sequitur'= . It could be by a cousin, an undocumented son
or
> someone impers= onating any one of them. One has to take the
scholarly
> risk of l= ooking
> at the music, the MSS and their stylistic features and ma= king a
> *judgement*!
> Not hard in this case.
>= (Steve Stubbs, a musician I greatly respect, asked me some years
ago
= > to think
> about doing some liner notes for him but I never = heard any
> more.)>>>>>>>>>>>>= >>>>>>>>>>>
> I hope this helps. = I trust Tim's scholarship in this matter.
> ed
> At 11:2= 5 AM 3/23/2011, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
> > By chance I've ju= st looked for any recorded music of Saint-Luc
> and saw
>= > that there's a CD by a 'Jacques-Alexandre de Saint Luc' with >=
> dates given as 1663 - c.1715. I have no knowledge of the so= urce
of
> > this information but it would certainly fit with= the
speculation
> of two
> > individuals with the = same, or similar,names. The players are
> Jacques
> > = Vandeville oboe and Daniel Fournier lute (and theorbo!).
> >=
> > MH
> > --- On Wed, 23/3/11, Martyn Hodgs= on
> <[1][4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > From: Martyn Hodgson <[2][5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk&g= t;
> > Subject: Jacques de Saint-Luc
> > = To: "Baroque lute Dmth" <[3][6]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>
> Date: Wednesday, 23 March, 2011, 15:47
> >
>= ; >
> > The dates of this composer are generally given as= 1616 - 1710
> which
> > seems a phenomenal life sp= an for the time and even more so
when
> his
> > ext= ant lute works seem to be in the style of the early decades
of
> t= he
> > 18th century (even down to fashionable
> >= ; doubling of the top and bottom line by strings) which would
have
= > made
> > him well into his 90s when these works were c= omposed.......
His >
> compositional style also seems much c= loser to Austro-germanic
> composers
> > like Logy,= von Radolt, Hintherleithner et al who flourished
> around the
> > turn of the century being predominantly in a polarised treb= le
and
> bass
> > manner.
> >
>= ; > I can find little about this shadowy figure but am being
drawn
to=
> the
> > speculation that there may have been two= different composers
> with the
> > same name (fat= her and son/nephew perhaps). Can anybody shed
> further
>= > light? Perhaps I've missed a paper?
> >
> &g= t; One clue ought to be the names of pieces such as 'La Prise
de
> <= br /> > Barcellonne', which might suggest a date of 1705 or
1714
but co= uld be
> > some earlier investment, or 'Le defaittes des Fra= ncois par les
> Allemand
> > Devant Turin' which su= ggests 1703. Again I find it hard to
> believe that
> >= ; the same San Luc was composing such 'modern' programmatic
music
= > at such
> > a ripe old age.
> >
> = > MH
> >
> > --
> >
>= >
> >To get on or off this list see list information at
> >[4][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
= > Edward Martin
> 2817 East 2nd Street
> Duluth, Minn= esota 55812
> e-mail: [5][8]e...@gamutstrings.com
> voice: = (218) 728-1202
> [6][9]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=3D16602=
98871&ref=3Dname
> [7][10]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
>= ;
> --
>
> References
>
> 1= .
>
[11]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dhodgsonmartyn@y=
ahoo.co.uk
> 2.
> [12]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compo=
se?to=[13]3dhodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
> 3.
> [14]http://uk.mc263.=
mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[15]3dbaroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 4. = [16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 5. http:/=
/uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[17]3...@gamutstrings.com 6.
> =
[18]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=3D1660298871&ref=3Dname
&g= t; 7. [19]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
>
>
>
--
References
1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=e...@gamutstrings.com
2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=e...@gamutstrings.com
9. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=3D16602=
10. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dhodgsonmartyn@y=
12. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compo=
13. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3dhodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
14. http://uk.mc263.=/
15.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3dbaroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
17. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3...@gamutstrings.com
18. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=3D1660298871&ref=3Dname
19. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
