Dear Anthony,
There's no reason why such bass gut strings shouldn't work almost as
well on a small lute as on a bigger one: simply the overall pitching
will be higher (ie in both cases the highest string will be pulled up
as close as possible to breaking stress).
Martyn
--- On Sat, 17/3/12, Anthony Hind <agno3ph...@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Anthony Hind <agno3ph...@yahoo.com>
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
To: "Edward Martin" <e...@gamutstrings.com>
Cc: "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Saturday, 17 March, 2012, 12:22
Dear Ed and All
Many of us seemed to have enjoyed and been influenced by
that
Reflexe recording, and indeed the wonderful Reflexe and Astree LPs
in
the 70s were how I was introduced to the pioneers; until I had the
chance of actually hearing some of them, Hoppy, and POD, Jakob
Lindberg, but unfortunately never Anthony Bailes.
%
I would gladly try those geared pegs, but I would also be
loth
to remove Stephen Gottlieb's very elegant sculpted ones, but perhaps
the originals could be grafted on to the geared ones?
When I remember to make the effort, Wolfgang Fruh's peg-turner does
go
someway to gearing the peg turn.
I bought it for the occasion when tend pegs stick, but actually it
works best on pegs that don't stick. It seems to
make them more precise. Without the turner, the string jumps above
and
then below the desired tuning point,
with the tuner it seems to go much more smoothly. Of course, it does
not have the accuracy of your marvellous geared pegs.
How wonderful to be the neighbour of an expert lute and string
maker!
%
Perhaps your present success with pure gut Pistoys also relates to
the
ultra hard table that Dan managed to make for your lute. I
understand
tables can harden with the years, so perhaps your lute has some of
the
sustain of an old lute, that helps your lute's response to your
stringing?
Of course, with AB's 76cm string length it wouldn't be so surprising
if
pure gut Pistoys did work well on the Wengerer lute, but if you
manage
a free sounding bass, without a hint of tubbiness, it will be quite
an
achievement for a 67cm lute in all Pistoy basses!
%
I had wanted to add a link to T. Satoh playing the Greiff, to
compare
with low tension stringing of an old lute. I tried to use the old
links
I have on my computer, but they all failed. I then tried to go on
the
Channel Island Classic site, and Firefox signalled warnings that the
site had a very poor reputation. I couldn't understand how that
could
be, but fearing it might be a scam site. I stopped my attempts,
which
is a pity, as it would be interesting to compare.
%
You haven't said what tension you have on your basses, and your
octaves, but would you classify it as light, medium or heavy?
regards
Anthony
__________________________________________________________________
De : Edward Martin <[1]e...@gamutstrings.com>
A : Anthony Hind <[2]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>;
"[3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
<[4]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Envoye le : Samedi 17 mars 2012 1h08
Objet : Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Anthony and all,
I also very much enjoy that old recording of AB on EMI Reflexe. A
great, old recording.
Your statement that "(although, I imagine that with his 76cm lute
pure
gut basses should also work well)" is in complete agreement with my
recent experimentation.
As you know, I have been doing some experimentation on my "French"
lute, which is now one year old. It is 67.5 cm 11-course Frei.
Recently, I put on plain gut, down to the 10th course (actually,
Pistoys on the 5th, and Pistoy fundamentals on 6-10) The 11th
course
still has a loaded gut fundamental from Mimmo. That is the only
metal
I have on this lute, and I want to say that I am quite happy with
the
sound of the pure (Pistoy) gut, i.e., without metal). In fact, I
prefer it to loaded gut. I just have not gotten around to trying
the
11th fundamental in pure gut, but when I do, I think it will work
just
fine. String makers have done a terrific job in research and
production of incorporating of metal into gut, but for my 11-course
lute with no bass extension, is very nice indeed. using pure gut.
They
do not sound "tubby" at all.
Unfortunately, I have not recorded this instrument yet, but will,
using
this stringing configuration. In my opinion, at least when
discussing
French baroque lute music, this is certainly worth trying.
Another factor........ I have just made a huge modification on the
11-course lute. I have just installed planetary gears, instead of
pegs. I know some people disapprove of this, but for many reasons,
I
am very, very happy with the results. They are expensive - that is
a
drawback. The thing is, friction pegs can be problematic, and even
the
best ones, perfectly fitted, do slip a little but. These "pegs"
look
_exactly_ like an ebony lute peg, but then _never_ slip or stick.
They
are geared to 25% of the turning of a friction peg; in other words,
one must turn 4 times the distance one would turn using a friction
peg. This makes tuning much, much more accurate, and it does not
stick, and the action is very fluid. The weight is identical to a
lute
peg, so no weight is added. With these gears, it is actually, a joy
to
tune!
Sometimes with friction pegs, I may be more hesitant to make
micro-adjustments in tuning, but with planetary gears, they are so
smooth, fast, and accurate, it seems as though my lute sounds so
much
better, as it is little to nothing to finely adjust the tuning. I
now
have my 2 favorite instruments in these gears - my vihuela, and
11-course lute.
In short, it is a winning combination - the beautiful sound in gut,
with greatly improved tuning.
ed
At 10:07 AM 3/16/2012, Anthony Hind wrote:
> Dear All
> Anthony Bailes LP recording of 'Pieces de luth'; EMI
REFLEXE;
> IC 06330938, was my introduction to French baroque lute music.
> After that I was hooked.
> I have enjoyed his recent CDs (although I had not yet heard
this,
his
> most recent one), but regret that the recordings (in particular
"Old
> Gautiers Nightinghall") do seem to have become a little more
> reverberant, which may take away somewhat from his recent
excellent
> string choices on the Wengerer: Nick Baldock trebles, Dan
Larson,
Lyons
> Meanes, and Mimmo Peruffo loaded basses (v AB seems to be
> one of the few pioneers still experimenting seriously in gut
stringing.
> %
> Indeed, Anthony B. has always had an experimental atttitude to
historic
> research. In his excellent article for Lute News 85, April
2008,
he
> said, of the old Bologna lutes so sought after by the French,
that
> Trichet tells us "French lute players were looking for
instruments
> which were very resonant, and capable of sustain"; and he goes
on
to
> tell us of his experience of playing old lutes, "The last, and
most
> important point is that notes on such instruments have more
sustain
> coupled with a more gradual and even decay to the sound. This
is
> particularly important as it can give the impression that a
note
sounds
> on longer than it actually does."
> In his Gaultier recordings, AB considers this so necessary to
his
> interpretation of this music that he appears willing to
sacrifice
ideal
> string length (and possibly barring), adopting the 76cm
historic
Wenger
> lute, just for the greater sustain this vintage lute affords.
> %
> Jakob Lindberg seems to confirm AB's experience, claiming two
almost
> contradictory characteristics for his Rauwolf: "this has
exactly
what I
> want. It has that clarity but also sustain, which is amazing".
> %
> It seems to be the function of this quality that AB is seeking
to
study
> with his recent recordings, at the expense of any
characteristic
> specifically associated with more usual string lengths of
around
68 cm
> (as correctly suggested by Martyn). Of course one might have
preferred
> AB to have discovered another 69.5 cm Rauwolf, Greiff (or
whatever),
> but no doubt he had to settle for the Wenger, or possibly chose
it
to
> isolate what this could bring, in spite of string length and
barring
> differences.
> %
> The question then (implied by Martyn) is what AB may have
gained
or
> lost in choosing a lute which might seem more suitable for late
German
> Baroque.
> AB mentions the elegeance and economy in the music, and it is
possible
> that this also extended to the playing position and thus the
length of
> the lute chosen, as seen in the rather nonchalant confortable
elegant
> style of Charles Mouton:
> [1][5]http://tinyurl.com/39r6xvd
> However, AB does have very long fingers, and seems to have very
little
> problem in playing with such string lengths:
> [2][6]http://tinyurl.com/77x475k
> Although the two do indeed look very different (and possibly,
as
Martyn
> says, the second might have been incongruous to a French
audience
of
> the time).
> %
> Soundwise, and this could be more important, we might have
expected the
> 276 year old Wenger to have lost a little in the mid register
(as
> compared to the 80 to 100 year old 68 cm lutes that the French
were
> seeking out), and with perhaps more bass presence, due to the
76cm
> loaded basses: the French with their smaller lutes, may rather
have
> been exploring the mid range, at the expense of these frequency
> extremes.
> Only listening to AB playing French music with this lute can
confirm or
> infirm, whether this is indeed the case.
> Unfortunateley, MP3 and recording equipment may not be up to
the
job of
> discriminating this (can we be sure that we are not hearing the
mics,
> the room acoustics rather than differences in lutes).
> But here is a recording of a modern 67cm Warwick Frei (415)
strung
in a
> not too different way, from the Wenger, with loaded basses and
Nick
> Baldock Meanes and trebles.
> [3][7]http://luthiste.com/downloads/Mouton.mp3
> and here is an extract from Une Douceur violente, AB on the
Wengere
> lute (375, loaded Basses, Larson Meanes, Baldock Trebles):
> Seventeenth-century French lute music
> [1][4][8]http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/1104/1104-01.mp3
> %
> Personally, trying only to concentrate on the tonal
differences,
and
> abstracting from player's style, as well as recording level and
415/370
> pitch (an almost impossible task?) I enjoy both, and I do hear
a
great
> deal of "presence" in the case of the old lute (with no obvious
mid
> lack), but with exactly the slightly veiled (slightly nasal?)
quality,
> which AB claims obliges him to play well back near the bridge
with
old
> lutes; this is my reaction, but I am not a musicologist,
specialist in
> french baroque music.
> Just to compare, here is the 69cm Rauwolf (with some gimped
basses
and
> some first generation loaded) but playing Weiss:
> [5][9]http://www.musicamano.com/music/weiss.mp3
> I do find the Rauwolf more "agile" (which might be important
for
the
> French repertoire) and a little less veiled and nasal; and this
could
> indeed be something to do with the difference of string length,
or
just
> relating to the recording differences.
> %
> Finally an extract from "Old Gautiers Nightinghall" with AB
playing on
> a modern 12c lute, by Paul Thomson (stringing?):
> [6][10]http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/0707/0707_01.MP3
> The sound to me, here, is more bright (due to the pitch?), but
with
> less depth; however, this is not the same tuning (or
stringing),
and
> the recording is more reverberant.
> $
> In conclusion, Martyn is right, I don't think we should
advocate
> performing French lute music with non-j-barred, 76cm lutes, and
I
> understand his "mise en garde" to that effect (would any one,
including
> AB, order the Wengerer model from their lutemaker for the
French
> repertoire? I would doubt it; while I for one did hesitate
about
> ordering a 69cm Rauwolf, before going for a 70cm Warwick); but
I
have
> enjoyed the sound of the short extract from Une Douceur
violente,
in
> spite of any doubts I might have had.
> That is of course just a personal reaction from a non
specialist,
> addicted to AB's old LP.
> Regards
> Anthony
> ________________________________
> De : Edward Martin <[2][7][11]e...@gamutstrings.com>
> A : [3][8][12]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Envoye le : Vendredi 16 mars 2012 3h50
> Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Ne Anthony Bailes CD
> Dear Ones,
> For those on the list who enjoy well played 11-course French
baroque
> lute, there is a new release by Abthony Bailes, on the Ramee
> label. it is entitled, 'Une Douceur violente", and it contains
works
> of Mouton and Gallot. He recorded this program on his
authentic
lute
> by Georgi Ferdinand Wenger, Augsburg, 1722. The catalog number
is
> RAM 1104, and it is available in the USA, in usual outlets.
> This is an announcement, not a review. The instrument is a
large
> one, and the pitch is consequently quite low, at a70, in
essence
> making it in a b-minor tuning. Beautiful sound and playing,
highly
> recommended.
> ed
> Edward Martin
> 2817 East 2nd Street
> Duluth, Minnesota 55812
> e-mail: [4][9][13]e...@gamutstrings.com
> voice: (218) 728-1202
>
[5][10][14]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
> [6][11][15]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
> [7][12][16]http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
> To get on or off this list see list information at
>
[8][13][17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1. [14][18]http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/1104/1104-01.mp3
> 2. mailto:[15][19]e...@gamutstrings.com
> 3. mailto:[16][20]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 4. mailto:[17][21]e...@gamutstrings.com
> 5.
[18][22]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
> 6. [19][23]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
> 7. [20][24]http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
> 8.
[21][25]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota 55812
e-mail: [22][26]e...@gamutstrings.com
voice: (218) 728-1202
[23][27]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
[24][28]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
[25][29]http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
--
References
1. [30]http://tinyurl.com/39r6xvd
2. [31]http://tinyurl.com/77x475k
3. [32]http://luthiste.com/downloads/Mouton.mp3
4. [33]http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/1104/1104-01.mp3
5. [34]http://www.musicamano.com/music/weiss.mp3
6. [35]http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/0707/0707_01.MP3
7. mailto:[36]e...@gamutstrings.com
8. mailto:[37]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
9. mailto:[38]e...@gamutstrings.com
10. [39]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
11. [40]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
12. [41]http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
13. [42]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
14. [43]http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/1104/1104-01.mp3
15. mailto:[44]e...@gamutstrings.com
16. mailto:[45]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
17. mailto:[46]e...@gamutstrings.com
18. [47]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
19. [48]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
20. [49]http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
21. [50]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
22. mailto:[51]e...@gamutstrings.com
23. [52]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
24. [53]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
25. [54]http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
--
References
1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3...@gamutstrings.com
2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoo.com
3.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c2%baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
4.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c2%baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. http://tinyurl.com/39r6xvd
6. http://tinyurl.com/77x475k
7. http://luthiste.com/downloads/Mouton.mp3
8. http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/1104/1104-01.mp3
9. http://www.musicamano.com/music/weiss.mp3
10. http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/0707/0707_01.MP3
11. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3...@gamutstrings.com
12.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c2%baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
13. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3...@gamutstrings.com
14. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
15. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
16. http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
18. http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/1104/1104-01.mp3
19. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3...@gamutstrings.com
20.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c2%baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
21. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3...@gamutstrings.com
22. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
23. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
24. http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
25. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
26. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3...@gamutstrings.com
27. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
28. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
29. http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
30. http://tinyurl.com/39r6xvd
31. http://tinyurl.com/77x475k
32. http://luthiste.com/downloads/Mouton.mp3
33. http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/1104/1104-01.mp3
34. http://www.musicamano.com/music/weiss.mp3
35. http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/0707/0707_01.MP3
36. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3...@gamutstrings.com
37.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c2%baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
38. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3...@gamutstrings.com
39. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
40. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
41. http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
42. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
43. http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/1104/1104-01.mp3
44. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3...@gamutstrings.com
45.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c2%baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
46. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3...@gamutstrings.com
47. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
48. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
49. http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
50. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
51. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3...@gamutstrings.com
52. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
53. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
54. http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
