Dear Anthony,
   I may well have misunderstood the point you make
   'and the extra diameter beyond the bridge behaving similarly  to
   loading, but as though the loading were more of the same material'
   - surely the physical characteristics of a string largely determine the
   sound - else why bother?
   Martin's practice of thinning at the bridge is probably  to allow the
   string there to vibrate around a clean take off point thus minimising
   frequency absorption (ie damping) and, as Martin said, to avoid  the
   thickish string buzzing against the bridge.  This is not, of course, to
   say that the rest of the physical characteristics of the string are
   immaterial! The characteristics of the string and hence sound are
   determined by the totality of the vibrating length and thus the
   material, its dimensions its elasticity, stiffness, etc. Otherwise  one
   might as well make a string out of anything and it would sound the same
   if the bridge thinning were identical ......
   regards
   Martyn
     __________________________________________________________________

   From: Martin Shepherd <mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
   To: Anthony Hind <agno3ph...@yahoo.com>; JarosÅaw Lipski
   <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl>; "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   <baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Friday, 3 February 2017, 15:35
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque Lute Stringing
     Thinning the string probably does weaken it, but since the strings in
     question are way below their breaking strain that would never be a
     problem.  I have not tried thinning at the nut, but I suspect if it
     could be done it might improve the sound still further.  There is
     something to be said for thinning them where they go through the hole
     in the peg, allowing a smaller hole to be used and also making it
     easier to persuade the string to bend around the peg.
     Martin
     On 03/02/2017 15:45, Anthony Hind wrote:
       By thinning them at the bridge, Martin, I suppose this allows the
       diapason to be "seen" (as it were) at the bridge as a thinish
   loaded
       string. The effective resonating diameter being that passing
   through
       the hole and the extra diameter beyond the bridge behaving
   similarly
       to loading, but as though the loading were more of the same
   material
       (albeit with a brake on the harmonicity where the whole string
   psses
       over the nut)? Does the whittling down weaken the string? Could you
       also thin it at the nut?
     Best wishes
     Anthony
       [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
       Le vendredi, février 3, 2017, 2:00 PM, Martin Shepherd
       [2]<[1]mar...@luteshop.co.uk> a écrit :
     Just to explain:
     When I said roped strings were dull compared to plain gut I was
   talking
     only about relatively thin strings, say .80-.90mm.
     For the KF strings, the high tensions which many people want to use
     will
     not work because the thicker KF strings are really too thick and
   stiff
     to work.  On the 11th course of an 11c lute I would use nothing
   larger
     than 1.50mm (actual diameter).  I'm using .95 for the 6th course.
     Another factor with KF strings is the importance of thinning them
   where
     they go through the bridge and wrap over themselves in front of the
     bridge.  If you don't do this, the sound will be dull and you will
     probably get problems with the strings buzzing against the top of the
     bridge.
     Martin
     On 03/02/2017 11:39, JarosÅaw Lipski wrote:
     > Mimmo,
     >
     >> You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain gut?
   I
     have the contrary. Maybe  it is necessary to know how the roped
   string
     was done. Mine is a roped string made with two fresh 'brins' twisted
     like as rope and then polished. In practice our Venices.
     > Yes, I use your Venice roped strings and can confirm this. They are
     brighter than plain gut
     >
     >> I would like to buy some KF strings just to do a comparation:
     > I have both KFs and your CDs and compared them side to side. KFs
   have
     shorter sustain, are more percussive and â¦slightly duller sound IMO.
     KFs work well till 11th course on BQL. I don't like them on
   diapasons.
     CDs have stronger fundamental, longer sustain (much longer than guts)
     and work very well on diapasons, however their elasticity make them
     work only on instruments with higher than normal action and wide
   string
     spacing. Also tuning is not ideal.
     >
     >> Heck, guys, what to do? first or second option?
     >> At present the second option is the winner!
     > Now, the question is what is your goal in making CD strings. If you
     aim at finding a substitute for gut strings than stiffer strings
   would
     be better. I am used to gut basses so I like short sustain and a
   little
     bit stiffer string. If someone played only overwounds he/she would
     probably prefer longer sustain. So the answer to your question will
     depend on whom you'll ask.
     > All in all there is no one answer to this question, and probably
   you
     would have to take into consideration your business strategy.
     > Best
     > Ciao
     >
     > Jaroslaw
     >
     >
     >
     >
     >> ciao to all
     >> Mimmo
     >>
     >> -----Messaggio originale----- From: Martin Shepherd
     >> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 10:22 AM
     >> To: Mimmo Peruffo ; Matthew Daillie
     >> Cc: Arto Wikla ; [3][2]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
     >> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
     >>
     >> Thanks, Mimmo.
     >>
     >> I agree absolutely that there is no need to make versions of these
     >> strings thinner than .80mm.
     >>
     >> The issue of damping is perhaps the one which worries me most.  In
     the
     >> case of roped strings, they sound duller than a plain gut string
   of
     the
     >> same size, presumably because of internal friction between the
     strands
     >> of the rope.  In the case of rubber strings (sorry!) what worries
   me
     is
     >> that some damping/absorption of energy is happening as the string
     >> stretches and contracts with each vibration.  The KF fluorocarbon
     >> strings, being solid and stiff, have neither of these damping
     effects.
     >> I can imagine that a string which was "floppy" but not especially
     >> elastic would work well.
     >>
     >> I hope that a lower rubber content would allow the strings to
   slide
     >> better over the nut, which would also be a welcome characteristic.
     >>
     >> Best to all,
     >>
     >> Martin
     >>
     >> On 03/02/2017 10:09, Mimmo Peruffo wrote:
     >>> Thank you very much about all these helpfull suggestions, guys.
     >>>
     >>> actually the gauges from 80 CD till 105CD are made half loaded
     using also a stiffer elastomer.  This combination is perfect fo the
     tonl trasiction betweenj pure gut/nylon/Nylgut to a wound strings, KF
     or CDs etc etc.
     >>> I call this range of gauges simply as Meanes. they are still CD
     types however.
     >>> In practice they  are around the 5th course of renaissance & d
     minor Lutes.
     >>> I have intentionally exluded the  4th courses because make not
     sense at all to use a denser strings on it. The  80 CD is just done
   for
     those that are curious.
     >>>
     >>> well, I done the very first prototypes (than cannot be perfect)
   and
     sent out to some friends to hear their opinions: of course, some of
     them were uneven. Despite that I had very good reports.
     >>> Some installed them also like octaves (!): I never realized that
     additional option. However,  I do not raccomend. Octaves normally can
     works at higher working index than a 5 th course;  so they can
   breack.
     >>>
     >>> said that, I agree with you Matthew. thanks
     >>>
     >>> Martin, a stiffer string has an higher elasticity modulus so the
     performances are  less good than those of an equivalent string with
     more elasticity. You probably reffers to the KF strings. However
   there
     are others parameters at work here, for example the inner damping
     effect is one of them, and it  is not related to the elasticity
     modulus. This explain for example why a special kind of nylon, whose
     density is far less than fluorocarbon sound like this one. It was a
     huge surprise to me!
     >>>
     >>> I am thinking that you guys prefer  the second option. To me is
     even better, it help to solve some problem becausew they sometime
   stick
     on the nut slots/ grooves.
     >>>
     >>> False strings? yes, with prototypes  can happen. when one start
     with  the ufficial production an extruder plant work exatly in the
   same
     even way. The first strings are the waste and then the rest are done
     exactly in the same way.
     >>> well, I am leaving italy to London so I have not time to re
   start;
     I will do some samples both for meanes and basses just to see if they
     actually works in the proper way
     >>> Be patient again;  i cannot be too fast  here.
     >>> Mimmo
     >>>
     >>>
     >>> -----Messaggio originale----- From: Martin Shepherd
     >>> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 9:35 AM
     >>> To: Matthew Daillie ; Mimmo Peruffo
     >>> Cc: Arto Wikla ; [4][3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
     >>> Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
     >>>
     >>> Tout à fait d'accord, Matthew.
     >>>
     >>> I would add that "trueness" is not just a question of intonation
     when
     >>> notes are fretted.  A false string never sounds in tune even as
   an
     open
     >>> string, and the pattern of vibration makes it buzz against the
     frets.
     >>> If your string heights are high enough that this isn't a problem,
     >>> they're too high.
     >>>
     >>> I don't know whether the samples I had from Mimmo some time ago
   are
     the
     >>> same as the current production, but I thought they were too
     elastic.  He
     >>> did say he was going to make a less elastic version for the
   thinner
     >>> strings, but I don't know whether he's implemented this idea or
   not
     (can
     >>> you tell us, Mimmo?).  I'm slightly puzzled by the suggestion
   that
     the
     >>> less elastic version would have a duller or darker sound, I would
     almost
     >>> expect the opposite - as a comparison, the KF strings are very
     stiff but
     >>> sound bright.
     >>>
     >>> It would be such a shame if after all his efforts we end up with
   a
     >>> string which is not as good as the old loaded gut.  Actually the
     new
     >>> string needs to be better than that in terms of trueness.
     >>>
     >>> Best wishes to all,
     >>>
     >>> Martin
     >>>
     >>> On 03/02/2017 09:06, Matthew Daillie wrote:
     >>>> Dear Mimmo,
     >>>> In my opinion there are two factors which need to be given
     priority even before judging the sound of a string. Firstly it has to
     be true (with no problems of intonation going up the fingerboard for
     stopped strings) and secondly it has to be playable: on a well-made
   and
     well set up lute, it must not catch on the nut, buzz, hit a
     neighbouring string, hit against the fingerboard, or cause any other
     extraneous noises. If a string has the potential to sound wonderful
   but
     does not meet these two criteria, then it is of no use whatsoever.
     >>>> Once that is established, obviously players want a string with a
     full-bodied and stable tone, enough sustain to make voice-leading a
     pleasure and the instrument to sing to the best of its ability and
     sufficient power to provide convincing projection and resonance.
     >>>> Personally I am looking for a warm and sweet tone with precise
     fundamentals and enough overtones to make the timbre rich and
   variable.
     >>>> Oh dear, that does sound like a holy grail doesn't it?
     >>>> Fingers crossed!
     >>>> Best
     >>>> Matthew
     >>>>
     >>>>
     >>>>
     >>>>
     >>>>> On Feb 3, 2017, at 8:29, Mimmo Peruffo
     <[5][4]mperu...@aquilacorde.com> wrote:
     >>>>>
     >>>>>    Thank you for the suggestion Arto.
     >>>>>    Unfortunately i cannot do it
     >>>>>    I already image how confuse the thing will be with the
     customers.
     >>>>>    This mean the eford to mannage twice products and honestly I
     do not
     >>>>>    like to add cofusion in the factory and with customers
   already
     stressed
     >>>>>    by me!
     >>>>>
     >>>>>    I should do a choice and in fast time: is it better a more
     elastic
     >>>>>    string like these are (whith problems related to the fact
   that
     maybe
     >>>>>    stretch tooo much and that the sound is too bright) or it is
     better to
     >>>>>    switch to a less elastic plastic support with the advantage
     that it
     >>>>>    stretch less, the sound is darker and with less sustain?
     >>>>>    Hard to do the choice: both solutions are ok; i already
   tried
     the
     >>>>>    second option that is similar to the loaded gut strings
     >>>>>    Even Anthony Bailes suggested me the second option.
     >>>>>
     >>>>>    Strings or not to strings? this is the question
     >>>>>
     >>>>>    ah ah
     >>>>>    (my poor english at work)
     >>>>>    Ciao
     >>>>>    Mimmo
     >>>>>
     >>>>>    ps
     >>>>>    which are your suggestion guys?
     >>>>>
     >>>>>
     >>>>>
     >>>>>    -----Messaggio originale-----
     >>>>>    From: Arto Wikla
     >>>>>    Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:46 PM
     >>>>>    To: Mimmo Peruffo ; [6][5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
     >>>>>    Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
     >>>>>
     >>>>>    Dear Mimmo,
     >>>>>
     >>>>>    if you decide to make the loaded nylgut strings (CD) less
     elastic, I
     >>>>>    hope (and wish and urge ;-) ) that you keep also the
   original
     elastic
     >>>>>    version in your repertoire! They work exceptionally well on
   my
     Harz
     >>>>>    arclute, great stuff.
     >>>>>
     >>>>>    And big thanks for your invaluable work!
     >>>>>
     >>>>>    Arto
     >>>>>
     >>>>>>    On 02/02/17 14:03, Mimmo Peruffo wrote:
     >>>>>> Well, seeing this post I have the idea to switch to these
     stiffer
     >>>>>    ones.
     >>>>>> at the end of the day they are closer to those loaded strings
     made of
     >>>>>    gut.
     >>>>>> I will do some samples in advance.
     >>>>>> Mimmo
     >>>>>
     >>>>>    To get on or off this list see list information at
     >>>>>    [7][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
     >>>>>
     >>>>>    --
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