At 11:03 AM 08/08/2001 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Hey guys'n'gals,
>I sense a lot of tension in the group, just chill out man,
>take it easy.
>
>There's no need for all this agression goto alt.domination.fetish
>for that sort of release. (I just made that group up so don't...
>just don't ;o)
You must be confusing us with another list, because I don't sense any
"tension" or "aggression" on this list at all. Someone gave an opinion
about Mark's page that the vast majority of us (at least the ones who have
spoken up) happen to disagree with. There have been no flames, just
reasoned disagreement.
This is healthy, intelligent discourse, as far as I'm concerned.
>
>As for MJD's little page of disgrace, I thought better of him
>than that. Recommending that to any newbie would not just be
>a completely un-productive waste of time, but would probably
>have a negative effect.
Being that this is a "beginners" list, it's important to discuss why Mark's
page should not be taken as some sort of mockery of newbies. Any reasonable
and objective person would understand that while Mark's irreverent, off the
cuff manner of speaking might offend many hyper-sensitive types, the points
he makes are dead-on correct, and newbies would be well served in taking
heed in his words.
Trust me, anyone who thinks that Mark's words are offensive (which they
aren't) wouldn't survive a second in comp.lang.perl.misc!
As Randal is often fond of saying, this (and other newsgroups) is not a
"help desk", where you should be allowed to ask the most rudimentary
questions for which the answers can already be found though other means.
There needs to be some sort of social order in order for discussion lists
to operate efficiently.
The great thing about the perl beginners lists are that people are more
tolerant of questions that most of the regulars on c.l.p.m. would basically
laugh at you for asking. For a burgeoning Perl newbie, this is
good...especially considering that many of the same "gurus" that are found
on c.l.p.m can also be found here...You basically get all the enlightenment
of the "real" newsgroup without any of the acerbic condescension :) But
like anything else in adult life, there comes a time when you have to move
out of your parents basement and head out into the mean, unforgiving world
and fend for yourself. Like them or not, most of the Perl "jerks" will
beat^H^H^H^H teach you more valuable practical knowledge than a hundred
fluffy, "nice" posters combined. It's just up to you to be mature enough to
seperate the wheat from the chaff.
As was said before, your emotional and intellectual energy is much better
served by *learning* from "experts", even if their experience sometimes
manifests itself in an in-your-face manner. And most of the time, the
reason why they might be perceived as being "jerks" is because they demand
excellence, or at least a good-faith attempt at being excellent. The sad
truth, however, is that a GREAT deal of questions /are/ "stupid" in the
classic understanding of the term. There is a reason why manuals exist. The
fact that many people simply can't be bothered to read them, and instead
expect to continually have every basic question answered cordially by more
knowledgeable people, is the very reason why "experts" tend to get a bit
annoyed when they see people abusing newsgroups and other online
communities--only because they are too lazy to try and find the solutions
themselves first.
This reminds me of a person I worked with, whose first instinct was to
always call up the technical support department for a software product we
use whenever he had even the most basic problem or question about its
functionality. In this case, since we were paying for a support contract,
the company was sort of obligated to not be jerks about it, but you could
still sense a palpable air of annoyance after awhile. And its people like
this who basically "hold up the line" for others who actually have "good"
questions that aren't of the typical RTFM variety.
My housemate actually works for a local ISP's technical support department,
and she routinely says that it's the "idiots", who constantly call in with
basic questions that they could easily find the answers for themselves, who
tie up the support line and lengthen "hold" queues.
This is not to say that "beginner" questions are "dumb" questions at all.
There are hundreds of beginner questions that pass through these lists
daily, but you can tell that most of the posters have done thier homework
already, and are just stumped or need pointers as to where to go next. This
is good and constructive. But then you get the type of poster who
continually asks questions in the vein of "how do I print an HTML link via
CGI?", and to use MJD's words, you'd have to be in a really good mood to
even bother answering a question like that.
I wouldn't ever presume to authoritatively speak for Casey on this list,
but I would think that even he would agree that while cordiality is one
thing, "spoon-feeding" with a smile is quite another...and I honestly don't
think he created these lists to serve as a venue for the latter.
>Don't bother replying to the group on this subject,
>
Too late, I just did ;)
<rant mode off>
Aloha,
mel
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