> Same approach that IETF took for EVPN  with various encap options like MPLS, 
> VXLAN, GENEVE,..

Well you do have the same thing with SFC/NSH, you can use any type of transport 
underneath: MPLS, VXLAN, GRE,UDP,…

In your example EVPN provides the service, then you pick the transport you want.
Here SFC/NSH may provide the service (chaining), then you pick also the 
transport you want.


From: mpls [mailto:mpls-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of LINGALA, AVINASH
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2018 10:06
To: BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; UTTARO, JAMES; Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - 
BE/Antwerp); Robert Raszuk; Adrian Farrel
Cc: mpls; SPRING WG List; s...@ietf.org; bess@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [mpls] [sfc] Progress with draft-farrel-mpls-sfc


I support this effort and I agree with Jim.  As an operator we would like to 
see various encapsulation options for SFC. This would help an operator to pick 
the suitable encapsulation option for their networks.

Same approach that IETF took for EVPN  with various encap options like MPLS, 
VXLAN, GENEVE,..

​​​​​
Thanks,
Avinash Lingala


From: BESS [mailto:bess-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of 
mohamed.boucad...@orange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucad...@orange.com>
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 10:25 AM
To: UTTARO, JAMES <ju1...@att.com<mailto:ju1...@att.com>>; Henderickx, Wim 
(Nokia - BE/Antwerp) 
<wim.henderi...@nokia.com<mailto:wim.henderi...@nokia.com>>; Robert Raszuk 
<rob...@raszuk.net<mailto:rob...@raszuk.net>>; Adrian Farrel 
<adr...@olddog.co.uk<mailto:adr...@olddog.co.uk>>
Cc: mpls <m...@ietf.org<mailto:m...@ietf.org>>; SPRING WG List 
<spr...@ietf.org<mailto:spr...@ietf.org>>; bess@ietf.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>; 
s...@ietf.org<mailto:s...@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] [sfc] [mpls] Progress with draft-farrel-mpls-sfc

Re-,

This is really a matter of taste.

Jim, whatever scheme we use for identifying service chains, there are 
requirements/constraints/new practices/new OAM procedures that need to be 
supported/honored for service chaining purposes.

Those are not simple nor complex in MPLS vs. NSH over MPLS. I’m wrong?

Cheers,
Med

De : UTTARO, JAMES [mailto:ju1...@att.com]
Envoyé : lundi 19 mars 2018 14:10
À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp); Robert 
Raszuk; Adrian Farrel
Cc : mpls; SPRING WG List; s...@ietf.org<mailto:s...@ietf.org>; 
bess@ietf.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>
Objet : RE: [sfc] [mpls] Progress with draft-farrel-mpls-sfc

Med,

                When I say simply, I am speaking as an operator. The 
operations, systems, tools, institutional knowledge etc… in this space is 
around MPLS. There is a simpler path to creating simple chains by using MPLS 
instead of introducing a new encap.

Thanks,
                Jim Uttaro

From: mohamed.boucad...@orange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucad...@orange.com> 
[mailto:mohamed.boucad...@orange.com]
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 10:03 AM
To: UTTARO, JAMES <ju1...@att.com<mailto:ju1...@att.com>>; Henderickx, Wim 
(Nokia - BE/Antwerp) 
<wim.henderi...@nokia.com<mailto:wim.henderi...@nokia.com>>; Robert Raszuk 
<rob...@raszuk.net<mailto:rob...@raszuk.net>>; Adrian Farrel 
<adr...@olddog.co.uk<mailto:adr...@olddog.co.uk>>
Cc: mpls <m...@ietf.org<mailto:m...@ietf.org>>; SPRING WG List 
<spr...@ietf.org<mailto:spr...@ietf.org>>; s...@ietf.org<mailto:s...@ietf.org>; 
bess@ietf.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [sfc] [mpls] Progress with draft-farrel-mpls-sfc

Re-,

I’m afraid that you cannot ‘simply’ re-use MPLS for chaining purposes without 
any code upgrade.


NSH does provide the simple functionality you need; that is the information to 
identify a chain + avoid infinite loops. This is known as: MD Type 0x2 with 
length is 0x2.

Of course you can encode that information using another channel, but still code 
change is needed.

Please note that NSH is not at the same level as “GENEVE, VXLAN”.

Cheers,
Med

De : UTTARO, JAMES [mailto:ju1...@att.com]
Envoyé : lundi 19 mars 2018 13:48
À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp); Robert 
Raszuk; Adrian Farrel
Cc : mpls; SPRING WG List; s...@ietf.org<mailto:s...@ietf.org>; 
bess@ietf.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>
Objet : RE: [sfc] [mpls] Progress with draft-farrel-mpls-sfc

Med,

                We run an MPLS network so there is no NSH deployed anywhere. I 
want to create simple chains that we can make available to our WAN customers 
and I want to keep it simple from a technology and operations POV.. At this 
point I do not see the need to introduce NSH for what we need to do. I can 
simply re-use MPLS.

Not sure why NSH is the winner here there are folks who advocate for GENEVE, 
NSH, VXLAN etc… If IETF is pushing for one encap than it would be helpful to 
define the set of requirements/criteria and compare the encaps.

Thanks,
                Jim Uttaro

From: mohamed.boucad...@orange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucad...@orange.com> 
[mailto:mohamed.boucad...@orange.com]
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 9:22 AM
To: UTTARO, JAMES <ju1...@att.com<mailto:ju1...@att.com>>; Henderickx, Wim 
(Nokia - BE/Antwerp) 
<wim.henderi...@nokia.com<mailto:wim.henderi...@nokia.com>>; Robert Raszuk 
<rob...@raszuk.net<mailto:rob...@raszuk.net>>; Adrian Farrel 
<adr...@olddog.co.uk<mailto:adr...@olddog.co.uk>>
Cc: mpls <m...@ietf.org<mailto:m...@ietf.org>>; SPRING WG List 
<spr...@ietf.org<mailto:spr...@ietf.org>>; s...@ietf.org<mailto:s...@ietf.org>; 
bess@ietf.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [sfc] [mpls] Progress with draft-farrel-mpls-sfc

Hi Jim,

Perhaps I missed your point, but I’m not asking to disallow whatever transport 
encapsulation scheme deployed in a network for SFC purposes.

What I’m saying is:
* the IETF has defined a generic SFC architecture and went with a 
transport-agnostic approach that can be deployed in conjunction with one’s 
favorite transport encapsulation protocol.
* Having a transport-agnostic approach get us away from redundant solutions to 
solve the same problem, redundant codes, etc.
* If we allow to mimic NSH in MPLS, there is no reason to do this for MPLS only.
* Instead of mimic NSH, I would personally favor re-using NSH.

Cheers,
Med

De : UTTARO, JAMES [mailto:ju1...@att.com]
Envoyé : lundi 19 mars 2018 12:33
À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp); Robert 
Raszuk; Adrian Farrel
Cc : mpls; SPRING WG List; s...@ietf.org<mailto:s...@ietf.org>; 
bess@ietf.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>
Objet : RE: [sfc] [mpls] Progress with draft-farrel-mpls-sfc

Where I get a little lost in this discussion is assuming that there must be one 
encap for SFC chains.. IMO SFC should define encap agnostic behaviors, NSH is 
an encap that has tons of functionality but if a simple chain is needed why is 
it that an existing encap should be disallowed by the IETF?? I want to simplify 
the network, when I say network it is all of the plumbing to realize a service 
for a customer including, WAN, MAN, DC etc.… From an OpS POV having a single 
encap across an integrated solution is quite attractive.

Thanks,
                Jim Uttaro

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of 
mohamed.boucad...@orange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucad...@orange.com>
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 5:52 AM
To: Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) 
<wim.henderi...@nokia.com<mailto:wim.henderi...@nokia.com>>; Robert Raszuk 
<rob...@raszuk.net<mailto:rob...@raszuk.net>>; Adrian Farrel 
<adr...@olddog.co.uk<mailto:adr...@olddog.co.uk>>
Cc: mpls <m...@ietf.org<mailto:m...@ietf.org>>; SPRING WG List 
<spr...@ietf.org<mailto:spr...@ietf.org>>; s...@ietf.org<mailto:s...@ietf.org>; 
bess@ietf.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [sfc] [mpls] Progress with draft-farrel-mpls-sfc

Hi all,

Wim has a point here.


For all these proposals, a new behavior is needed to be followed by SFC-aware 
nodes. What differs is the channel used to signal a chain and to supply 
additional data for SFC purposes.



Leveraging on existing code/capabilities is good for a vendor/implementer, but 
the risk is that a given solution will need to support all/many of these 
flavors. Which is not optimal.



The IETF has already a consensus on a transport-agnostic solution. If we open 
the door for MPLS, we need to open it also for IPv6 EH and so on. Are we OK to 
go that way? If yes, what is the NEW problem are we trying to solve?



Cheers,

Med

De : sfc [mailto:sfc-boun...@ietf.org] De la part de Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - 
BE/Antwerp)
Envoyé : dimanche 18 mars 2018 07:26
À : Robert Raszuk; Adrian Farrel
Cc : mpls; SPRING WG List; bess@ietf.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>; 
s...@ietf.org<mailto:s...@ietf.org>
Objet : Re: [sfc] [mpls] Progress with draft-farrel-mpls-sfc

Indeed, this is exactly my point. If you want an interim solution you want to 
use what we have and draft-ietf-bess-service-chaining-04 is an example of how 
you can use the existing data-plane for service chaining. draft-farrel-mpls-sfc 
requires an implementation change in the data-plane, whether we like it or not 
and an upgrade is required even in brownfield deployments. So, you better go 
directly to the final solution defined in IETF SFC WG. If we standardize 
draft-farrel-mpls-sfc we end up supporting both forever.

From: <rras...@gmail.com<mailto:rras...@gmail.com>> on behalf of Robert Raszuk 
<rob...@raszuk.net<mailto:rob...@raszuk.net>>
Date: Saturday, 17 March 2018 at 19:13
To: Adrian Farrel <adr...@olddog.co.uk<mailto:adr...@olddog.co.uk>>
Cc: "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" 
<wim.henderi...@nokia.com<mailto:wim.henderi...@nokia.com>>, mpls 
<m...@ietf.org<mailto:m...@ietf.org>>, SPRING WG List 
<spr...@ietf.org<mailto:spr...@ietf.org>>, 
"s...@ietf.org<mailto:s...@ietf.org>" <s...@ietf.org<mailto:s...@ietf.org>>, 
"bess@ietf.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>" <bess@ietf.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [sfc] [mpls] Progress with draft-farrel-mpls-sfc

Hi Adrian,

> That proxy may be a bump in the wire between the SFF and SF

I am not so sure about that ... If this would be just "bump in the wire" you 
would have zero guarantees that all packets which need to go via given function 
will actually hit that bump - so this is far from a reliable network service.

There must be associated control plane component attracting traffic to such 
bump.

That mechanism with basic MPLS (where labels by based MPLS architecture are of 
local significance) is available with L3VPN extensions as already progressing 
in BESS (draft-ietf-bess-service-chaining-04) so why not use this for as you 
state "interim" ?

No one really addressed that question yet and I think it is a critical one to 
make any further judgement  as to the future of this individual submission.

Cheers,
R.



On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 6:46 PM, Adrian Farrel 
<adr...@olddog.co.uk<mailto:adr...@olddog.co.uk>> wrote:
Hi Wim,

Thanks for reading the draft so carefully.

> Adrian, on replacement of NSH. You will have to change the SF with this 
> proposal
> in Non proxy case so this proposal does not solve a brownfield case. Which 
> SF(s)
> support MPLS?

This is not about "replacing" the NSH. As you'll see from point 2, below, this 
is about providing an interim / migration technology.

Clearly (and I think you agree) in the case where an SF is not SFC-aware, a 
proxy must be used. That proxy may be a bump in the wire between the SFF and 
SF, a module of the SFF, or a module of the SF. In the case of PNFs, only the 
first two options are available. In the case of a VNF, all three options exist.

Now, let us recall where we are starting from. There are PNFs and there are 
VNFs built to look like PNFs. These SFs do not support MPLS or NSH.

Similarly, there are routers that do not support the NSH.

Now, of course, we would all love to sell major upgrades so that every 
component of the network is SFC-aware. But we would also like to start 
deploying SFC into existing network infrastructure.

So your question misses the point. The question to ask is which brownfield 
routers and SFs support NSH?

Cheers,
Adrian

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