Narcissistic anarchists such as yourself solely ragard that laws are for other
people and not thyself. Be careful that stop sign doesn't kick you in the butt,
or worse.
________________________________
From: Mike <[email protected]>
To: Michael Chronister <[email protected]>
Cc: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, May 18, 2012 11:41:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Bikies] "stop" legally defined
many laws are designed to hinder and hurt people. follow them if you want, be a
victim if you please when the law fails you. the courts laugh, and will charge
you, when you follow stupid laws they were mostly designed as political
symbols.
On May 18, 2012, at 11:33, Michael Chronister <[email protected]>
wrote:
This is a very good point. PR is huge. If we want to be respected we need to
show that we respect the established laws of riding on roads. The other day I
rode from campus to the square. If anyone has gone up state street onto square
and followed all the lights and signs you know that is frustrating and makes no
sense to not turn right on red or to wait for the green to cross Dayton if it
is
painfully clear. The reward is enjoying your turn when it is your right of
way. When you have waited for that light to change and finally you get to go,
enjoy it and make others that are trying to take your right away aware that
they
are doing so with a simple bell ring or "coming through".
>-Michael
>
>
>
>On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 11:19 AM, Kris Niemann <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>I completely agree that there is no safety reason for a mature bike rider to
>come to a complete stop at a stop sign, as we have the advantage of being
>fully
>aware of our surroundings (vs. a vehicle). Therefore, the only reason to
>come
>to a complete stop is for PR, and this is an important one. If there are ANY
>CARS around at all, I always emphasize stopping, not going through red light,
>etc. because we NEVER want a bike-hater to be able to use the argument that
>bikes don't follow the rules. Funny how we have to play these childish games
>because of so many closed-minded drivers.
>>
>>
>>kris
>>
>>
________________________________
From: Grant Foster <[email protected]>
>>To: "STRAWSER, Charles" <[email protected]>
>>Cc: [email protected]
>>Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 9:49 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Bikies] "stop" legally defined
>>
>>
>>I actually think it's the wrong approach to advocate for equal treatment, as
>>in,
>>treat me just like you treat a motor vehicle. We are different and we should
>>be
>>treated differently. I believe we should be afforded equal access to a safe
>>and
>>efficient infrastructure, but pretending I'm a car is an easy way out. I
>>can't
>>drive down the belt line on my bike and I don't want to-it's unsafe and it
>>would
>>severely impact the motor vehicle traffic. Let's advocate for equal rights,
>>not
>>equal treatment.
>>In the same way, I shouldn't ever have to come to a complete stop at a stop
>>sign
>>unless the situation truly calls for it. There is absolutely no value in me
>>stopping at a stop sign (as opposed to yielding) except that by not stopping
>>I
>>might make a driver envious.
>>There's actually no value in motor vehicles stopping instead of yielding at
>>the
>>vast majority of posted intersections. The only reason we have so many stop
>>signs is because motor vehicle drivers don't yield very well.
>>Grant
>>On May 17, 2012 1:02 PM, "STRAWSER, Charles" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>I think the tangent we are on is interesting, but deserves a new subject line.
>>>------------
>>>Arthur wrote: “Watch motorists approaching a stop sign. Watch their wheels.
>>> Do
>>>their wheels completely cease moving if they are not forced to stop by a
>>>flow of
>>>traffic…”
>>>-------------
>>>Long ago I heard a law enforcement officer say that even if a motorist’s
>>>wheels
>>>were stopped, it could be argued that “motion had not ceased” if the driver
>>>only
>>>stopped long enough for the car’s body to rock forward (over the stopped
>>>wheels), then backward (still over stopped wheels), then took their foot off
>>>the
>>>brake and allowed the car’s wheels to start rolling forward before the
>>>oscillation of the car’s body over the stopped wheels had ceased, i.e.
>>>COMPLETE
>>>cessation of motion (nothing in the statute Arthur cites mention that the
>>>motion
>>>that has to cease only includes “forward” motion).
>>>
>>>I personally think that is perhaps too rigid a view of what constitutes a
>>>legal
>>>stop for a motorist (or a track standing cyclist), but I’d be fine with an
>>>individual law enforcement officer taking that view as long as s/he
>>>consistently
>>>applied such an extremely narrow view of “stop” to both motorists and
>>>bicyclists.
>>>
>>>That is, after all, all we are asking for: equal consideration under the
>>>law
>>>that is due bicyclists by Wisconsin state statutes.
>>>
>>>Chuck Strawser
>>>Pedestrian & Bicycle Transportation Planner
>>>Commuter Solutions
>>>Transportation Services
>>>UW-Madison
>>>Room 124 WARF
>>>610 Walnut St
>>>Madison WI 53726
>>>608-263-2969
>>>www.wisc.edu/trans
>>>From:Ross, Arthur
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>CHAPTER 340 VEHICLES — GENERAL PROVISIONS
>>>340.01 Words and phrases defined. In s. 23.33 and chs. 340 to 349 and 351,
>>>the
>>>following words and phrases have the designated meanings unless a different
>>>meaning is expressly provided or the context clearly indicates a different
>>>meaning:
>>>(62) “Stop” when required means complete cessation from movement.
>>>
>>>Reasonable people can disagree as to just what this means with respect to
>>>what
>>>behavior by a bicyclist constitutes a legal stop. Reasonable people can
>>>include a bicyclist, a police officer, a judge, and/or a jury :- )
>>>
>>>Watch motorists approaching a stop sign. Watch their wheels. Do their
>>>wheels
>>>completely cease moving if they are not forced to stop by a flow of traffic
>>>on
>>>the intersecting street? This not an argument for bicyclists not stopping,
>>>just
>>>an interesting study in behavior.
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Bikies mailing list
>>>[email protected]
>>>http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org
>>>
>>>
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