LGTM2, but I just want to make it clear that I don't think this is a strong precedent for weak cases for manifest extensions in future.
The risk here isn't high, but neither is my confidence in the design. An OT for future designs like these, or a strong up-front case from developers for it, would help avoid delays. Regards On Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 12:33:48 PM UTC-7 Mike West wrote: > LGTM1. > > In general, I agree with Alex's suggestion that we should be gathering > developer feedback via OT, and particularly in cases where there's only > marginally web-exposed surface so that we get developers exercising the > embedder-level integration points to give y'all feedback on whether or not > those integration points meet their expectations. > > That said, I don't see much value in an OT for this particular API given > the way that its web-exposed surface is really all about spelling. I'm also > a little concerned that an OT would be non-trivial to implement, given the > fact that we'll be well outside of any particular document context at the > point when the integration would be executed. So, I think it's reasonable > to bypass in this particular case. > > -mike > > > On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 4:28 AM Glen Robertson <glen...@chromium.org> > wrote: > >> There have been some expressions of interest on the github issue >> <https://github.com/WICG/manifest-incubations/issues/25> (including some >> fairly sizable apps). There were also some suggestions to use a more >> generalised interface, but I'm still convinced by the arguments made in the >> explainer >> <https://github.com/WICG/manifest-incubations/blob/gh-pages/note_taking-explainer.md#alternatives-considered> >> >> (summarized from discussion with other web platform devs >> <https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/965>) that a specific, top-level >> field is appropriate. This is more along the lines of bike-shedding so I >> don't think an OT would help settle the discussion. >> >> Is this now sufficient developer interest to ship? >> >> >> On Fri, 13 Aug 2021 at 13:34, Glen Robertson <glen...@chromium.org> >> wrote: >> >>> Thanks Alex. >>> I'd prefer to ship instead of OT if reasonable, so I've asked a few >>> note-taking-web-app developers directly if they're interested and made a >>> github issue for them to post on >>> <https://github.com/WICG/manifest-incubations/issues/25> (I feel like >>> there wasn't an obvious avenue/CTA for them to publicly express support >>> before). I've also asked DevRel if they will point people at that link. >>> >>> I'll give that a few days and will fall back to an OT (in M94) if we >>> don't see sufficient interest expressed. >>> >>> On Fri, 13 Aug 2021 at 06:16, Alex Russell <slightly...@chromium.org> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> hey Glen, >>>> >>>> We discussed again today in the OWNERs meeting and it seems like a good >>>> idea to get stronger developer signals here one way or another. I'm LGTM >>>> if >>>> you want to run an OT instead of shipping directly to do that, else we can >>>> engage with our various developer relations teams to see if there's some >>>> way to drum up support for the design as-is. >>>> >>>> Thoughts? >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 12:23:39 AM UTC-7 Glen Robertson wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thanks for checking around MSFT, Alex. >>>>> >>>>> The reason we didn't go with an OT here was because the API seemed >>>>> small and uncontroversial and unlikely to change shape. We already had an >>>>> interested internal customer (plus there are many other note-taking web >>>>> apps out there, and existing users of the similar feature for note-taking >>>>> Chrome Apps). I didn't think it fit any of the bullet points under >>>>> "Should >>>>> you run an origin trial? >>>>> <https://www.chromium.org/blink/origin-trials/running-an-origin-trial#TOC-Should-you-run-an-origin-trial->" >>>>> >>>>> (perhaps the default assumption in that documentation should be flipped >>>>> to >>>>> "you should run an OT unless in exceptional circumstances"?). >>>>> >>>>> If lack of interest is a problem we can disable the flag for M93 and >>>>> start an OT in M94 instead. Blink Leads, please let me know if that is >>>>> required. >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, 11 Aug 2021 at 04:51, Alex Russell <slightly...@chromium.org> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> hey Glen, >>>>>> >>>>>> I've reached out to teams here at MSFT to see if there are other >>>>>> folks who need something similar, but don't have much to report. >>>>>> >>>>>> Given that this is a manifest change, it seems relatively low risk >>>>>> but the lack of developer interest is a red flag. Is there a reason this >>>>>> shouldn't go to OT first? >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Monday, August 9, 2021 at 7:13:29 PM UTC-7 Glen Robertson wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Is there any more needed from me here? M93 stable cut is coming up >>>>>>> in about 2 weeks and it would be nice to avoid delaying this to the >>>>>>> next >>>>>>> release if possible. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are still no responses from Mozilla or Webkit on the standards >>>>>>> positions requests, but the DevRel tweet has positive responses (38 >>>>>>> likes >>>>>>> and a positive reply). >>>>>>> TAG hasn't made any recommendations yet, beyond asking for >>>>>>> clarifications in the explainer (which I have done). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 at 18:11, Glen Robertson <glen...@chromium.org> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There was a generally positive reaction on the DevRel tweet about >>>>>>>> it <https://twitter.com/ChromiumDev/status/1417062059632644097>. >>>>>>>> We also have a 1P app that is already using it in beta internally >>>>>>>> (internal >>>>>>>> CL <http://cl/380133411>). >>>>>>>> There was some platform developer discussion here >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/965> that led us to the >>>>>>>> current design, but that was platform developers, not app developers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is there some other avenue I can follow to get more feedback on the >>>>>>>> API? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 at 05:22, Alex Russell < >>>>>>>> slightly...@chromium.org> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As discussed in today's OWNERS meeting, it would be helpful to get >>>>>>>>> developer signals. It's going to be hard to make a case that we >>>>>>>>> should ship >>>>>>>>> this w/o some form of input from folks who need or want it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 7:44:09 AM UTC-7 Colin Blundell >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 2:14 AM Jason Robbins < >>>>>>>>>> jrobb...@google.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sure. I have a pull request in review for the additional >>>>>>>>>>> field-level help text: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/GoogleChrome/chromium-dashboard/pull/1440/files >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>> jason! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Looks great, thank you! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 5:55 AM Colin Blundell < >>>>>>>>>>> blund...@google.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 9:15 AM Glen Robertson < >>>>>>>>>>>> glen...@chromium.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the clarification! In that case, the answer is >>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely "yes". crbug.com/1185678 is a good record of code >>>>>>>>>>>>> added to support the feature, though it relies on existing code >>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>> supported note-taking Chrome Apps. >>>>>>>>>>>>> If possible, it would be nice to have a brief version of the >>>>>>>>>>>>> question's intent shown in the I2S template generated by >>>>>>>>>>>>> Chromestatus! >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the feedback! I assume that you mean something like: >>>>>>>>>>>> "Reply "yes" here if your feature has any implementation code in >>>>>>>>>>>> //chrome, >>>>>>>>>>>> even if that's for functionality on top of the spec, so that other >>>>>>>>>>>> //content embedders can be aware of that functionality." ? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> +Jason Robbins <jrobb...@google.com>, would you be able to add >>>>>>>>>>>> this? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Colin >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 at 00:57, Colin Blundell < >>>>>>>>>>>>> blund...@chromium.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Glen, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Comment inline about the "requires code in //chrome?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 8:27 AM Glen Robertson < >>>>>>>>>>>>>> glen...@chromium.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for your replies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regarding signals: I've now requested positions from Mozilla >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Webkit, and asked for some help on the web developer front >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from DevRel. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regarding web platform tests: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the spec'd behaviour >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://wicg.github.io/manifest-incubations/index.html#new_note_url-member> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is intentionally that the user agent has no obligation to do >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the new field. It may use it in some way, or ignore it. The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> existing spec'd >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behaviour of the web app manifest parser is that it must ignore >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unknown >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fields[*]. Therefore, if we are testing compliance with the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spec, I don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think there is new behaviour to test here. If you think I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should add a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> note-taking-specific WPT test anyway I can. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *: I can't see a test for this, so I sent a CL >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://crrev.com/c/3038042>. And another CL >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://crrev.com/c/3038318> for adding a similar check in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> manifest_parser_unittest, because manual WPT tests aren't very >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reassuring! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Re: "Requires code in //chrome? False" / OS integrations: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wasn't quite sure about the intent of this question. The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spec doesn't require any code in chrome, and the field is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> parsed on all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> platforms, but we do have code in //chrome to do an OS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> integration with it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The OS integration is on Chrome OS only: it shows the app in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the list of note-taking apps in CrOS settings (already existed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> note-taking Chrome Apps, but only visible if you have a stylus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or --force-enable-stylus-tools) and, if selected by the user in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that list, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the app can be launched from the stylus palette in the toolbar. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good question! I just sent out information about this field. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The intent is for feature developers to reply "yes" here if >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their feature >>>>>>>>>>>>>> has implementation code in //chrome, even if that's for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> functionality on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> top of the spec. The reason is that other //content embedders >>>>>>>>>>>>>> might want to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mirror that functionality. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Colin >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What happens when 2+ webapps all define note taking >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The spec doesn't define any required behaviour from the UA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> upon detecting a note-taking app. It is similarly up to the UA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what to do >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with multiple note-taking apps. In CrOS the list of note-taking >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apps are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shown in stylus settings and the user may select one to be used >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stylus palette. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this capability feature detectable? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No. If it's not supported then note-taking web apps just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operate like any other web app. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll wait on feedback from TAG and developer/vendor signals. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 at 19:16, Yoav Weiss < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yoavwe...@chromium.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 11:08:38 AM UTC+2 Yoav Weiss >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 10:34:35 AM UTC+2 Mike West >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 5:08 AM Glen Robertson < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> glen...@chromium.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Contact emails glen...@chromium.org, mgi...@chromium.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Explainer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/WICG/manifest-incubations/blob/gh-pages/note_taking-explainer.md >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reading through the explainer I wonder: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * What happens when 2+ webapps all define note taking >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities? Which one wins? Or would the UA then present the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> user with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the choice, similar to native apps? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Is this capability feature detectable? Is there something >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers can do when it's not supported? (I'm guessing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there's not much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they can, but want to confirm) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Specification >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://wicg.github.io/manifest-incubations/index.html#note_taking-member >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> API spec Yes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Summary >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Parses a web app manifest entry for a URL to open to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> take a new note in a note-taking web app, allowing OS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> integrations. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chrome for desktop release: M93 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blink component Blink >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/list?q=component:Blink> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TAG review >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/648 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The TAG seem engaged, so it's worthwhile to wait for their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TAG review status Pending >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Risks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Interoperability and Compatibility >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Gecko*: No signal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *WebKit*: No signal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Web developers*: No signals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Please ask for signals, as per >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://bit.li/blink-signals. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Similarly on the developer signals front, we have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> goo.gle/developer-signals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this feature fully tested by web-platform-tests >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/master/docs/testing/web_platform_tests.md> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ? Yes. No required behaviour. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure I follow. It doesn't look like any web >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> platform tests contain the string `note_taking`. Even if >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there's no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> web-facing behavior this influences, it seems reasonable to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> add it to a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> test that verifies its parsing. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Flag name blink::features::kWebAppNoteTaking >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Requires code in //chrome? False >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=1185678, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I see quite a bit of code that's landed in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //chrome/browser/{chromeos,web_applications, etc}. It seems >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feature depends upon the embedder doing some work to create >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an integration >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with a platform-level (or UA-level, I suppose) note-taking >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> application? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Given that, are there platform restrictions on this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feature? Or is this limited to a subset of the platforms >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blink supports? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tracking bug >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=1185678 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Launch bug >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=1189357 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Measurement When a web app is launched to create a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> note, a LaunchResult::WEB_APP_SUCCESS is recorded. See: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/main:chrome/browser/chromeos/note_taking_helper.h;drc=d7a02514bb30afce607817fd2e8ef8a8af559739;l=130 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Link to entry on the Chrome Platform Status >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://chromestatus.com/feature/5205972320518144 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This intent message was generated by Chrome Platform >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Status <https://www.chromestatus.com>. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Google Groups "blink-dev" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from it, send an email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blink-dev+unsubscr...@chromium.org. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 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