Still LGTM from me too.

On Wed, Aug 23, 2023 at 8:58 AM Yoav Weiss <yoavwe...@chromium.org> wrote:

> Still LGTM
>
> On Wed, Aug 23, 2023 at 5:47 PM Chris Thompson <cth...@chromium.org>
> wrote:
>
>> We have iterated on the Fetch spec PR
>> <https://github.com/whatwg/fetch/pull/1655> and believe it is ready to
>> land modulo some editorial tweaks.
>>
>
> Please be sure to follow up on the PR once the reviewers get back to it.
>
>
>>
>> From our 1% Stable experiment, we saw a substantial decrease in insecure
>> plaintext HTTP navigation requests, and no regressions in Core Web Vitals
>> metrics.
>>
>> We would like to proceed with this Intent-to-Ship, doing a gradual
>> rollout to 100% in order to continue monitoring potential breakage.
>>
>> We did see a possible regression in renderer crash proportion, but we
>> have not been able to identify a plausible cause or crash signature. Due to
>> this possible stability risk we will be coordinating our gradual rollout
>> with release owners. I can update this thread each time we increase our
>> rollout percentage.
>>
>> - Chris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 19, 2023 at 9:01 PM Yoav Weiss <yoavwe...@chromium.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> LGTM3 with similar conditions. If the PR takes an unreasonable amount of
>>> time to land, please let us know.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 19, 2023 at 9:02 PM Chris Harrelson <chris...@chromium.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> LGTM2 with the same conditions as Daniel. Thanks also for following up
>>>> with a summary before proceeding with rollout!
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jul 19, 2023 at 11:56 AM Chris Thompson <cth...@chromium.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks Daniel. As a quick update, this was just enabled at 1% Stable
>>>>> in M115 (released yesterday). We have not seen any blockers come up from
>>>>> Beta, but since issues may arise mainly in the long tail of sites we might
>>>>> not see anything until Stable anyway. We'll keep an eye on our 
>>>>> experimental
>>>>> rollout and follow up here with a summary.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jul 19, 2023 at 11:52 AM Daniel Bratell <bratel...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I've been waiting a bit to see if the experiment would blow anything
>>>>>> up, but if it doesn't, and continue to not do so, then
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LGTM1 as soon as the PR has landed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /Daniel
>>>>>> On 2023-06-14 17:40, Yoav Weiss wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 5:53:49 PM UTC+2 Chris Thompson wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 9:41 PM Yoav Weiss <yoavwe...@chromium.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for working on this!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 11:44 PM Chris Thompson <cth...@chromium.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks all. Some updates:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    - We have filed a TAG review request
>>>>>>    <https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/853>
>>>>>>    - We are working on writing WPTs and we will update this thread
>>>>>>    when those are ready -- thanks for the added details about how those 
>>>>>> are run
>>>>>>    - We have added a `Non-Authoritative-Reason: HttpsUpgrades`
>>>>>>    header to the synthetic redirects (CL
>>>>>>    <https://chromium-review.googlesource.com/c/chromium/src/+/4584420>,
>>>>>>    which we are planning to merge back to M-115)
>>>>>>    - We are continuing to iterate on the spec PR
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For now we will continue to provide updates on this I2S -- closer to
>>>>>> M115 going to Stable we may send an I2E to request the ability to proceed
>>>>>> with a 1% Stable experiment if we have not yet been able to resolve
>>>>>> everything here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> @Harald Alvestrand <h...@google.com> : In general, this feature
>>>>>> should work fine with captive portals. A captive portal that intercepts
>>>>>> HTTPS connections will result in a certificate error, which will cause 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> upgrade to fail and automatically fall back to HTTP. Alternatively, the
>>>>>> captive portal could reset the connection for HTTPS requests, which would
>>>>>> accomplish the same.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We have had one report of a middlebox that returned an HTTP 404 error
>>>>>> over HTTPS instead of rejecting the connection, causing breakage (the
>>>>>> upgraded HTTPS page would load but have useless content). We do not 
>>>>>> believe
>>>>>> the browser should fallback on *application* level errors, as they
>>>>>> do not provide a useful signal that the site does not support HTTPS -- in
>>>>>> the vast majority of cases the same application error will occur over 
>>>>>> HTTP
>>>>>> as well. (This specific case was an enterprise situation, with an
>>>>>> enterprise installed root certificate making the middlebox's HTTPS work,
>>>>>> and we have enterprise policies to allow organizations to disable 
>>>>>> upgrades
>>>>>> for affected hosts.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What's our plan to tackle such issues? Do we have an enterprise
>>>>>> policy in place?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We have two enterprise policies for this feature:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    - HttpsUpgradesEnabled
>>>>>>    <https://chromeenterprise.google/policies/#HttpsUpgradesEnabled> can
>>>>>>    be used to disable this feature on managed clients (we have a similar
>>>>>>    policy <https://chromeenterprise.google/policies/#HttpsOnlyMode>
>>>>>>    for Chrome's HTTPS-First Mode, i.e. the opt-in "Always use secure
>>>>>>    connections" setting)
>>>>>>    - HttpAllowlist
>>>>>>    <https://chromeenterprise.google/policies/#HttpAllowlist> can be
>>>>>>    used to allowlist hostnames or hostname patterns -- these will then 
>>>>>> not be
>>>>>>    upgraded on managed clients (this also applies to HTTPS-First Mode)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are two "escape hatches" for users who encounter breakage and
>>>>>> need to fall back to HTTP, although from prior measurement we expect this
>>>>>> to be rare:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    - If the user explicitly types an "http://"; URL into the Omnibox
>>>>>>    (with the scheme), we skip upgrading that navigation and add the host 
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>    the allowlist.
>>>>>>    - If the user sets the "Insecure Content" content setting (
>>>>>>    chrome://settings/content/insecureContent) to "Allowed" for the
>>>>>>    site, then we skip upgrading navigations. (This setting also disables 
>>>>>> mixed
>>>>>>    content autoupgrading
>>>>>>    
>>>>>> <https://w3c.github.io/webappsec-mixed-content/level2.html#upgrade-algorithm>
>>>>>>  --
>>>>>>    for HTTPS Upgrades and HTTPS-First Mode we rely on Mixed Content 
>>>>>> Level 2 to
>>>>>>    ensure no plaintext subresource requests are sent.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That makes sense!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 1:02 AM Harald Alvestrand <h...@google.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How will this affect login to captive portals (WiFi login), which
>>>>>> frequently rely on rewriting HTTP requests?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 12:00 AM 'Panos Astithas' via blink-dev <
>>>>>> blink-dev@chromium.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 7:31 AM Mike West <mk...@google.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 4:17 PM Rick Byers <rby...@chromium.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As a long-time user of HTTPS-first mode, I'm excited to see this ship
>>>>>> ASAP!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, May 31, 2023, 5:29 a.m. 'Mike West' via blink-dev <
>>>>>> blink-dev@chromium.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, May 26, 2023 at 1:32 AM Chris Thompson <cth...@chromium.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, May 25, 2023 at 3:36 AM Mike West <mk...@chromium.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am enthusiastic about this (and not just because it should allow us
>>>>>> to deprecate/remove `Upgrade-Insecure-Requests`). A few comments inline:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, May 25, 2023 at 1:13 AM Chris Thompson <cth...@chromium.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Contact emailscth...@chromium.org, dadr...@google.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Explainerhttps://github.com/dadrian/https-upgrade/blob/main/
>>>>>> explainer.md
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Specificationhttps://github.com/whatwg/fetch/pull/1655
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for putting this together! I'll leave some comments on the PR.
>>>>>> Given that we haven't gotten any feedback from Fetch editors, it might be
>>>>>> prudent to let them take a pass before locking in our current behavior.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Yes, hopefully we can get some feedback, but I'm optimistic that we
>>>>>> won't be locking in behavior if we ship this as it should hopefully be 
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> site or user visible, so if we need to change the behavior to align
>>>>>> cross-browser we can iterate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I left a few comments last week. I think the PR needs some work
>>>>>> before we can reasonably expect it to land in Fetch.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree (and left a few comments of my own). Would it be possible to
>>>>>> make some progress on this? Once the comments are addressed and we feel
>>>>>> good about the PR's state, could we use the Mozilla position as support 
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> publish the PR for review? (It's currently marked as a draft, which may
>>>>>> explain why it wasn't reviewed by Fetch editors)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Friendly ping on making progress on the PR! :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do we have tests in place for this behavior in Web Platform Tests?
>>>>>> https://wpt.fyi/results/mixed-content/tentative/autoupgrades?label=
>>>>>> experimental&label=master&aligned holds some tests for subresources,
>>>>>> but I didn't see any around navigation or fallback behavior (which seems
>>>>>> like it might need some WPT infrastructure change to produce a domain
>>>>>> that's only served over HTTP).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We do not have Web Platform Tests but we can look into adding them.
>>>>>> Currently this is implemented in //chrome which I think might make this
>>>>>> more difficult (my understanding is that the WPT suite is run against
>>>>>> content_shell rather than chrome).  We are currently relying on browser
>>>>>> tests for our integration testing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WPT is a pretty important part of shipping features that affect the
>>>>>> platform. It would be ideal if we could share these tests with our 
>>>>>> friends
>>>>>> at other vendors (and update existing tests that might be expecting
>>>>>> different behavior). Shifting the implementation to //content to make 
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> possible would also have the advantage of helping other Chromium 
>>>>>> embedders
>>>>>> ship this feature, which would be excellent for consistency in the 
>>>>>> project.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Note that the official WPT results on wpt.fyi are using full Chrome
>>>>>> builds. IIRC there are other features that require Chrome. I  personally
>>>>>> only consider having WPTs passing on upstream infra to be blocking I2S. 
>>>>>> @Panos
>>>>>> Astithas <pastit...@google.com> can say more authoritatively.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Indeed, upstream WPT results use full Chrome (and Firefox, Safari,
>>>>>> etc.) through wptrunner. Soon, this will also be the case when running 
>>>>>> WPT
>>>>>> in Chromium CI on Linux, once some blockers have been resolved.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Panos
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1 to the benefits of having this in content, but I personally think
>>>>>> that's outside the scope of API owners so not something that should block
>>>>>> an I2S.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree with this. I didn't mean to imply that //content
>>>>>> implementation was necessary, but that _having_ web platform tests is
>>>>>> important for interop. Browser tests are less useful in that regard. :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Summary
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Automatically and optimistically upgrade all main-frame navigations
>>>>>> to HTTPS, with fast fallback to HTTP.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blink componentInternals>Network>SSL
>>>>>> <https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/list?q=component:Internals%3ENetwork%3ESSL>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TAG reviewFetch change process does not mention a TAG review,
>>>>>> therefore this is N/A (https://github.com/whatwg/fetch#pull-requests)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blink's process does mention a TAG review. I think it would be a good
>>>>>> idea to put this in front of them. I also think they will appreciate it,
>>>>>> since it's directly in line with their previous guidance (e.g.
>>>>>> https://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/web-https).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sure, we can file a TAG review. I'll update this thread once that's
>>>>>> done.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TAG review statusNot applicable
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Risks
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Interoperability and Compatibility
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Gecko*: Positive (https://github.com/mozilla/
>>>>>> standards-positions/issues/800) Firefox is offering a similar
>>>>>> feature already in their private browsing mode by default
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *WebKit*: No signal (https://github.com/WebKit/
>>>>>> standards-positions/issues/185)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Web developers*: No signals. This feature is not exposed directly
>>>>>> to web developers or users. However, HTTPS adoption is now standard
>>>>>> practice (>90% of page loads in Chrome use HTTPS), and automatically
>>>>>> upgrading navigations to HTTPS would avoid unnecessary redirects from 
>>>>>> HTTP
>>>>>> to HTTPS for site owners. The `upgrade-insecure-requests` header has some
>>>>>> similar functionality, and according to HTTP-Archive is found on ~6% of 
>>>>>> all
>>>>>> requests.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Other signals*:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WebView application risks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does this intent deprecate or change behavior of existing APIs, such
>>>>>> that it has potentially high risk for Android WebView-based applications?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Debuggability
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chrome will upgrade these navigations to HTTPS using a 307 internal
>>>>>> redirect, which will be visible in the Network panel of Developer Tools.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For HSTS, we synthesize a `Non-Authoritative-Reason` header on the
>>>>>> synthetic redirect that tells developers why the redirect happened. Is 
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> a pattern y'all will follow here as well? If so, it's probably a good 
>>>>>> idea
>>>>>> to document it somewhere; I don't think we've explained that header 
>>>>>> well. :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good idea. I'll get a CL up to add this to our implementation, and it
>>>>>> seems reasonable to merge back to M115. We can include a mention of it in
>>>>>> any public facing documentation we write about this. I'm also looking 
>>>>>> into
>>>>>> whether we can add NetLog events for the upgrade and fallback steps which
>>>>>> could help with triaging bug reports.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Will this feature be supported on all six Blink platforms (Windows,
>>>>>> Mac, Linux, Chrome OS, Android, and Android WebView)?No
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Currently not available on Android WebView. We are implementing this
>>>>>> first for Chrome and will consider bringing this to WebView (likely as an
>>>>>> embedder opt-in) as follow up work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is this feature fully tested by web-platform-tests
>>>>>> <https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/main/docs/testing/web_platform_tests.md>
>>>>>> ?No
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Flag namehttps-upgrades
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Requires code in //chrome?True
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can you spell out what's required here? Just enterprise policy work,
>>>>>> or are there other things embedders would need to implement to make this
>>>>>> functionality work?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This feature is currently implemented in //chrome with some support
>>>>>> code in content/'s NavigationRequest. I think it would be feasible to
>>>>>> migrate the core of this into content/ -- we use an
>>>>>> URLRequestLoaderInterceptor and a NavigationThrottle to implement the
>>>>>> upgrading and fallback logic. This is currently shared with Chrome's
>>>>>> HTTPS-First Mode (controlled by Chrome's "Always use secure connections"
>>>>>> setting). If we did migrate this logic to content/, embedders would need 
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> add their own support for at least (1) how to handle allowlisting
>>>>>> hostnames, and (2) enterprise policies for enabling/disabling the feature
>>>>>> and exempting hostnames. We do not have a design ready for making this
>>>>>> change though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As mentioned above, it would be ideal for the pieces of this change
>>>>>> that affect the platform to be available in //content so they flow into
>>>>>> content_shell and other embedders.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tracking bughttps://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=
>>>>>> 1394910
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Launch bughttps://launch.corp.google.com/launch/4235192
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sample links
>>>>>> http://example.com will upgrade to https://example.com.
>>>>>> http://www.alwayshttp.com will upgrade to https://www.alwayshttp.com but
>>>>>> fall back to http://www.alwayshttp.com because the site doesn't
>>>>>> support HTTPS.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Estimated milestonesShipping on desktop115Shipping on Android115
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We are planning to do a field trial to gradually roll out this
>>>>>> feature to Chrome clients in Chrome 115.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Over what time period do you expect to ramp up to 100%? If you expect
>>>>>> it to push beyond the M115 timeframe, it might be reasonable to frame 
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> as an intent to experiment to give folks a little more time to weigh in 
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> the Fetch PR.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We are hoping to ramp up to 100% within M115, but it may end up
>>>>>> completing in M116.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (We could do an I2E, but it did not seem like a good fit as there is
>>>>>> no Origin Trial component, this does not require developer involvement,
>>>>>> etc. Our understanding was even doing a non-OT 1% Stable rollout required
>>>>>> sending an I2S and getting LGTMs from API OWNERS. Let us know if you 
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> we should reassess our launch plan.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We do have an experimentation path for running a Finch experiment on
>>>>>> stable/beta users (confusingly(?) under "Origin Trial"
>>>>>> <https://www.chromium.org/blink/launching-features/#:~:text=Depending%20on%20your,required%20before%20proceeding.>
>>>>>> in our documentation; we could probably improve that).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think I'd recommend that path to avoid any delays that might come
>>>>>> up in getting Fetch updated to support this feature. I'd LGTM an I2E @ 
>>>>>> 50%
>>>>>> beta/1% stable to gain confidence in the fallback mechanism at scale. For
>>>>>> I2S, I'm a little worried about the state of the spec and its eventual
>>>>>> interoperability across vendors. I'd like to get that hammered down 
>>>>>> before
>>>>>> making it harder to change details that developers might come to rely 
>>>>>> upon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anticipated spec changes
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Open questions about a feature may be a source of future web compat
>>>>>> or interop issues. Please list open issues (e.g. links to known github
>>>>>> issues in the project for the feature specification) whose resolution may
>>>>>> introduce web compat/interop risk (e.g., changing to naming or structure 
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the API in a non-backward-compatible way).
>>>>>> https://github.com/whatwg/fetch/pull/1655
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Link to entry on the Chrome Platform Statushttps://chromestatus.com/
>>>>>> feature/6056181032812544
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Links to previous Intent discussionsIntent to prototype:
>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/mgJqym5-Xek/m/
>>>>>> 0EAN6v7CCQAJ
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This intent message was generated by Chrome Platform Status
>>>>>> <https://chromestatus.com/>.
>>>>>>
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>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>>>>> send an email to blink-dev+unsubscr...@chromium.org.
>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/
>>>>>> chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAKXHy%3DdPs5Spya9QBVmFYdeTJevs6jML%
>>>>>> 3DNmU7SEApOshNRmHCg%40mail.gmail.com
>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAKXHy%3DdPs5Spya9QBVmFYdeTJevs6jML%3DNmU7SEApOshNRmHCg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>> .
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>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/
>>>>>> chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAJ8Nf20mYRwXxCjadR5MuQ5DPj7nH
>>>>>> a6MGEkFe5576W1tZ8MkPQ%40mail.gmail.com
>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAJ8Nf20mYRwXxCjadR5MuQ5DPj7nHa6MGEkFe5576W1tZ8MkPQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
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>>>>>> CY9au4h-Gc%3D3dYWPFNeT1g-wdmQxEvSQ%40mail.gmail.com
>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CALMy46Q--Fj9qV%3D28_CY9au4h-Gc%3D3dYWPFNeT1g-wdmQxEvSQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>> .
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>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
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>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/4bb5bcde-794b-44ea-9a04-2c3837eac96dn%40chromium.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>> .
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