On Tue, May 21, 2024 at 12:09 PM Mason Freed <mas...@chromium.org> wrote:
> Thank you all! I will proceed cautiously. A few comments below... > > On Tue, May 21, 2024 at 6:37 AM Mike Taylor <miketa...@chromium.org> > wrote: > >> I had a slight concern about the quilljs usage - even though they've >> minted a new version, we know that getting sites to update is a major >> hurdle. That said, after reading through the comments and linked issues on >> upstream repos (react-quill, etc) - nobody seems to be describing any >> breakage, they just want the warning to go away. :) >> > I agree that in *all* of the cases where I've seen public issues > discussing this, it was just users saying there was a funny warning that > made them uncomfortable, not reporting something "broken". Which is good on > two fronts: 1) things might not break, and 2) console warnings do work > sometimes! > >> On 5/20/24 1:09 AM, Domenic Denicola wrote: >> >> LGTM2. This is extremely exciting. I hope that in a year, the deprecation >> process is fully complete, and we get to enjoy deleting a lot of >> code/specs/maybe tests. >> >> I look forward to deleting that code/spec also! That's the dopamine > reward at the end of all painful deprecations. > >> I agree with your instinct to go to 100% directly with the 127 release. >> >> Thanks. > >> On Mon, May 20, 2024 at 12:18 AM Philip Jägenstedt <foo...@chromium.org> >> wrote: >> >>> In https://github.com/WebKit/standards-positions/issues/192 the point >>> is made that there are other events that fire with the same timing as >>> mutation events, so this removal doesn't unblock everything. >>> Nevertheless, I share the assessment that mutation events "significantly >>> increase the complexity of adding new features to the Web" so if removal >>> is within reach I think we should go for it. From >>> https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/807 it's clear >>> that there is enthusiasm beyond the Chromium project too. >>> >> The team working on the "state preserving atomic moves" API has managed > to navigate around all of the other such synchronous events, leaving only > mutation events in their way. So I actually do believe this removal > unblocks a new, cool API that is in the works this year. > >> Rolling this out with Finch is definitely prudent, and I agree with the >>> argument for going directly to 100% in 127 to make for a less confusing >>> debugging experience. >>> >> Thanks. At least two votes for straight-to-100%, so that's what I'll do. > FWIW, I think both strategies have pros and cons, but I do support the straight-to-100% in this case LGTM1 to this plan, while being ready to adapt to things that come up in >>> the process. >>> >> I will definitely be very careful in rolling this out. > > Thanks, > Mason > > >> Best regards, >>> Philip >>> >>> On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 9:28 PM Mason Freed <mas...@chromium.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 11:00 AM Vladimir Levin <vmp...@chromium.org> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I looked into the UKM data about three months ago, before I started >>>>>> the experiment to disable all mutation events on Canary/Dev/Beta. I >>>>>> looked >>>>>> at the top ~30 UKM hits and dug into the site's code to see what the >>>>>> usage >>>>>> was. Many (~40% or so?) of the top sites usage was due to quilljs >>>>>> <https://github.com/quilljs/quill/issues/3806> which has since >>>>>> updated their code to not rely on mutation events. Another maybe 10% was >>>>>> due to a Sharepoint 2016 mquery.js utility >>>>>> <https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/sharepoint/sharepoint-2016-server-mquery-js-event-deprecation/m-p/3947764>, >>>>>> for which several folks have requested support from MS, but it's a bit >>>>>> unclear what the plan is. The rest of the sites appeared to have bespoke >>>>>> code looking at mutation events. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Is Sharepoint 10% of the 1% usage? According to the thread you linked >>>>> <https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/sharepoint/sharepoint-2016-server-mquery-js-event-deprecation/m-p/4103969/highlight/true#M80109> >>>>> they >>>>> will fix it in a Sept 2024 release but seem like they won't backport the >>>>> fix to previous versions. That seems a bit risky, but also I'm not sure >>>>> what the breakage looks like and as you say, things seem to work. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I don't have a great way to break down how much of the 1% is >>>> represented by the Sharepoint library, because it just shows up as a JS >>>> dependency on affected sites. And yes that's what the public thread there >>>> says, though I'm not sure how authoritative that is. I've reached out >>>> privately to MS to see if there's more info I can glean. Just to confirm, I >>>> can't "see" any breakage on those sites. The most "visible" thing, which is >>>> what gets folks to report issues like the Sharepoint one, is the console >>>> warning that mutation events are being used and might break. Those had the >>>> intended effect in all of these cases, which is a good thing. >>>> >>>> >>>>> And finally, of course, assuming I'm approved to disable in M127, I'll >>>>>> be very mindful of breakage and will flip the events back on immediately >>>>>> in >>>>>> the case that there is more breakage than I'm expecting. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Is the plan to do a finch rollout, something like 1% stable increasing >>>>> week by week? Or were you just thinking of enabling it in 127 without >>>>> finch? >>>>> >>>> >>>> So I'm definitely planning to launch this via Finch, so I can be >>>> guaranteed that un-launching it that way will "work" for all platforms. But >>>> I could go either way on the question of whether to ramp up slowly or go >>>> directly to 100% with the 127 release. I was leaning toward 100% of 127 on >>>> stable release day, because I think that'll be the least confusing for >>>> people experiencing issues. I.e. they relaunch their browser into 127 and >>>> something breaks - they now understand what caused it. When the breakage >>>> starts on some random day, and isn't repeatable across computers, they have >>>> a harder time knowing they should report a bug. And I want to maximize the >>>> chance that issues get reported quickly. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Mason >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Let me know if anything else would help make the case that we should >>>>>> go forward with this. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Mason >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Chrome has shipped an experiment since M124 that disables all >>>>>>>>> Mutation Events for 99% of users of Canary, Dev, and Beta versions of >>>>>>>>> Chrome. Very few bugs have been filed in the intervening months, and >>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>> that were filed have been resolved quickly via the site owner making >>>>>>>>> changes to not rely on the deprecated events. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This gives me significant confidence that removing the events will >>>>>>>>> not be as big of a deal as the use counters would suggest. Still, due >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> the still-high numbers, extreme care will be taken in the removal >>>>>>>>> process. >>>>>>>>> I plan to disable the events via Finch only, so that if issues are >>>>>>>>> encountered, Finch will be a safe way to re-enable the events. >>>>>>>>> Additionally, there are the deprecation trial and enterprise policies >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> offer an easy relief valve for affected sites. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *Gecko*: Positive ( >>>>>>>>> https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/807) "very >>>>>>>>> strong positive position" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *WebKit*: No signal ( >>>>>>>>> https://github.com/WebKit/standards-positions/issues/192) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *Web developers*: No signals >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *Other signals*: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Activation >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This npm package attempts to polyfill Mutation Events using >>>>>>>>> Mutation Observer: https://www.npmjs.com/package/mutation-events. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> WebView application risks >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Does this intent deprecate or change behavior of existing APIs, >>>>>>>>> such that it has potentially high risk for Android WebView-based >>>>>>>>> applications? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> None >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Debuggability >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Will this feature be supported on all six Blink platforms >>>>>>>>> (Windows, Mac, Linux, ChromeOS, Android, and Android WebView)? Yes >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Is this feature fully tested by web-platform-tests >>>>>>>>> <https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/main/docs/testing/web_platform_tests.md> >>>>>>>>> ? No >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Flag name on chrome://flags mutation-events >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Finch feature name MutationEvents >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Requires code in //chrome? False >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Tracking bug https://crbug.com/1446498 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Estimated milestones >>>>>>>>> Shipping on desktop 127 >>>>>>>>> Origin trial desktop first 124 >>>>>>>>> Origin trial desktop last 134 >>>>>>>>> Shipping on Android 127 >>>>>>>>> OriginTrial Android last 134 >>>>>>>>> OriginTrial Android first 124 >>>>>>>>> Shipping on WebView 127 >>>>>>>>> OriginTrial webView last 134 >>>>>>>>> OriginTrial webView first 124 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Anticipated spec changes >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Open questions about a feature may be a source of future web >>>>>>>>> compat or interop issues. Please list open issues (e.g. links to known >>>>>>>>> github issues in the project for the feature specification) whose >>>>>>>>> resolution may introduce web compat/interop risk (e.g., changing to >>>>>>>>> naming >>>>>>>>> or structure of the API in a non-backward-compatible way). >>>>>>>>> None >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Link to entry on the Chrome Platform Status >>>>>>>>> https://chromestatus.com/feature/5083947249172480?gate=5111010140094464 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Links to previous Intent discussions Intent to Deprecate: >>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/qDsKRU-cQ_4/m/isA1mZ_aAAAJ >>>>>>>>> Intent to Experiment: >>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/z-VIfSOco4k/m/KDz9c_goAAAJ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This intent message was generated by Chrome Platform Status >>>>>>>>> <https://chromestatus.com/>. >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "blink-dev" group. >>>>>>>>> To 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<https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAOmohSJzmUKZo5K0TwixDRx0J5JfcNzugO3C%2BPVac-sB-3M-0g%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "blink-dev" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to blink-dev+unsubscr...@chromium.org. >>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAM%3DNeDgfmwE9%3DKjAuKSZKEw_3CQ9tWenNa0yfLo8QXG6EyZ5uw%40mail.gmail.com >>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAM%3DNeDgfmwE9%3DKjAuKSZKEw_3CQ9tWenNa0yfLo8QXG6EyZ5uw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "blink-dev" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, 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<https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAARdPYc74oCQFO%3Dhnmt_%2BK-XgwbBX-U1gkLQ%2Bo10vKd4uTHTZw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "blink-dev" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to blink-dev+unsubscr...@chromium.org. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAM0wra83-2od_jv2KkO8sn7gYkkvQLZiTjLX5wfLss0HCT9ZEg%40mail.gmail.com >> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAM0wra83-2od_jv2KkO8sn7gYkkvQLZiTjLX5wfLss0HCT9ZEg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "blink-dev" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to blink-dev+unsubscr...@chromium.org. > To view 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