I think even packets are a network construct. End/end protocols don't write packets. They mostly make writes() and reads and have no clue about packets. Except for, of course, UDP which you know everything about being the original designer.
Agreed the telemetry is most interesting and a huge void. Curious to more of your thoughts on it, metrics, etc. Note: iperf 2 has write to read latencies. It requires clock sync. My systems sync to the GPS atomic as the commonNote/ reference. I think end/end queue depths can be calculated per Little's law (shown below per inP.) https://sourceforge.net/projects/iperf2/ [rjmcmahon@rjm-nas ~]$ iperf -s -i 1 ------------------------------------------------------------ Server listening on TCP port 5001 TCP window size: 128 KByte (default) ------------------------------------------------------------ [ 1] local 192.168.1.94%enp2s0 port 5001 connected with 192.168.1.100 port 59142 (MSS=1448) (trip-times) (sock=4) (peer 2.1.3-rc) on 2021-07-01 20:57:37 (PDT) [ ID] Interval Transfer Bandwidth Burst Latency avg/min/max/stdev (cnt/size) inP NetPwr Reads=Dist [ 1] 0.00-1.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.170/0.153/1.492/0.078 ms (4769/131082) 104 KByte 3674521 22841=787:18657:2467:623:84:41:66:116 [ 1] 1.00-2.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.167/0.156/0.434/0.015 ms (4768/131086) 102 KByte 3742630 23346=1307:18975:2171:578:105:53:56:101 [ 1] 2.00-3.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.168/0.157/1.337/0.033 ms (4769/131046) 103 KByte 3710006 23263=1470:18602:2148:725:107:53:60:98 [ 1] 3.00-4.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.166/0.158/0.241/0.008 ms (4768/131082) 102 KByte 3756478 23960=1452:19714:2123:449:79:32:38:73 [ 1] 4.00-5.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.166/0.157/0.247/0.008 ms (4769/131061) 102 KByte 3756193 23653=1234:19529:2206:439:89:36:44:76 [ 1] 5.00-6.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.166/0.158/0.245/0.007 ms (4768/131072) 101 KByte 3758826 23478=1081:19356:2284:535:73:35:39:75 [ 1] 6.00-7.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.168/0.158/0.283/0.009 ms (4768/131096) 102 KByte 3728988 23477=1338:19301:1995:535:104:46:59:99 [ 1] 7.00-8.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.163/0.150/0.400/0.010 ms (4769/131047) 99.7 KByte 3826119 23496=1213:19404:2101:498:83:57:43:97 [ 1] 8.00-9.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.158/0.149/0.236/0.008 ms (4768/131082) 96.6 KByte 3951089 23652=1328:19498:2074:493:77:41:53:88 [ 1] 9.00-10.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.158/0.149/0.235/0.008 ms (4769/131061) 96.4 KByte 3958720 23725=1509:19410:2051:463:91:46:47:108 [ 1] 0.00-10.00 sec 5.82 GBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.165/0.149/1.492/0.028 ms (47685/131072) 101 KByte 3784172 234891=12719:192446:21620:5338:892:440:505:931 [rjmcmahon@ryzen3950 iperf2-code]$ iperf -c 192.168.1.94 -i 1 --trip-times -b 5g -e ------------------------------------------------------------ Client connecting to 192.168.1.94, TCP port 5001 with pid 68866 (1 flows) Write buffer size: 131072 Byte TCP window size: 85.0 KByte (default) ------------------------------------------------------------ [ 1] local 192.168.1.100%enp4s0 port 59142 connected with 192.168.1.94 port 5001 (MSS=1448) (trip-times) (sock=3) (ct=0.33 ms) on 2021-07-01 20:57:37 (PDT) [ ID] Interval Transfer Bandwidth Write/Err Rtry Cwnd/RTT NetPwr [ 1] 0.00-1.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4770/0 5 295K/111 us 5631373 [ 1] 1.00-2.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0 295K/120 us 5207927 [ 1] 2.00-3.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0 306K/110 us 5681375 [ 1] 3.00-4.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4769/0 0 306K/107 us 5841891 [ 1] 4.00-5.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0 306K/110 us 5681375 [ 1] 5.00-6.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0 306K/109 us 5733498 [ 1] 6.00-7.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4769/0 0 306K/115 us 5435499 [ 1] 7.00-8.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0 306K/111 us 5630192 [ 1] 8.00-9.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4769/0 0 306K/110 us 5682567 [ 1] 9.00-10.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0 306K/109 us 5733498 [rjmcmahon@rjm-nas ~]$ iperf -s -i 1 --histograms=10u ------------------------------------------------------------ Server listening on TCP port 5001 with pid 5166 Read buffer size: 128 KByte (Dist bin width=16.0 KByte) Enabled rx-histograms bin-width=0.010 ms, bins=1000 (clients must use --trip-times) TCP window size: 128 KByte (default) ------------------------------------------------------------ [ 1] local 192.168.1.94%enp2s0 port 5001 connected with 192.168.1.100 port 59146 (MSS=1448) (trip-times) (sock=4) (peer 2.1.3-rc) on 2021-07-01 21:01:42 (PDT) [ ID] Interval Transfer Bandwidth Burst Latency avg/min/max/stdev (cnt/size) inP NetPwr Reads=Dist [ 1] 0.00-1.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.164/0.149/1.832/0.101 ms (4769/131072) 100 KByte 3809846 22370=435:17000:3686:1060:77:35:25:52 [ 1] 0.00-1.00 sec F8-PDF: bin(w=10us):cnt(4769)=15:3,16:4414,17:227,18:49,19:14,20:11,21:6,22:1,23:1,35:1,49:1,55:1,67:1,74:1,85:1,90:2,94:1,95:1,97:1,100:1,103:1,104:1,113:1,114:1,115:2,116:1,118:1,119:2,120:1,125:2,126:1,127:1,132:1,133:1,134:1,137:2,138:1,140:1,142:2,143:1,144:1,149:1,153:1,157:1,159:1,184:1 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/17/133,Outliers=352,obl/obu=0/0) (1.832 ms/1625198502.626723) [ 1] 1.00-2.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.156/0.148/0.235/0.006 ms (4768/131094) 95.0 KByte 4018733 21762=498:16581:2918:1512:75:36:56:86 [ 1] 1.00-2.00 sec F8-PDF: bin(w=10us):cnt(4768)=15:6,16:4304,17:287,18:99,19:36,20:21,21:10,22:3,23:1,24:1 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/17/21,Outliers=458,obl/obu=0/0) (0.235 ms/1625198503.810735) [ 1] 2.00-3.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.158/0.150/0.515/0.009 ms (4769/131049) 96.2 KByte 3966043 22863=528:18422:3099:571:78:36:47:82 [ 1] 2.00-3.00 sec F8-PDF: bin(w=10us):cnt(4769)=16:4078,17:416,18:182,19:50,20:23,21:9,22:4,23:3,24:1,27:1,30:1,52:1 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/18/21,Outliers=0,obl/obu=0/0) (0.515 ms/1625198505.144479) [ 1] 3.00-4.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.157/0.149/0.284/0.007 ms (4768/131082) 95.9 KByte 3978135 22766=472:18044:3360:646:90:37:51:66 [ 1] 3.00-4.00 sec F8-PDF: bin(w=10us):cnt(4768)=15:1,16:4183,17:342,18:159,19:37,20:23,21:13,22:4,23:3,25:1,27:1,29:1 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/18/21,Outliers=23,obl/obu=0/0) (0.284 ms/1625198505.973695) [ 1] 4.00-5.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.157/0.149/0.381/0.008 ms (4769/131061) 95.9 KByte 3978347 22759=451:18039:3415:632:57:16:49:100 [ 1] 4.00-5.00 sec F8-PDF: bin(w=10us):cnt(4769)=15:1,16:4253,17:287,18:150,19:31,20:11,21:15,22:6,23:4,24:4,25:1,26:1,27:1,28:2,30:1,39:1 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/17/23,Outliers=36,obl/obu=0/0) (0.381 ms/1625198507.119394) [ 1] 5.00-6.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.157/0.151/0.222/0.006 ms (4768/131072) 96.0 KByte 3974720 22661=422:17875:3411:723:95:29:44:62 [ 1] 5.00-6.00 sec F8-PDF: bin(w=10us):cnt(4768)=16:4166,17:405,18:130,19:30,20:21,21:8,22:7,23:1 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/17/21,Outliers=0,obl/obu=0/0) (0.222 ms/1625198508.350409) [ 1] 6.00-7.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.158/0.150/0.302/0.008 ms (4768/131082) 96.3 KByte 3962779 22723=453:17930:3414:699:93:24:33:77 [ 1] 6.00-7.00 sec F8-PDF: bin(w=10us):cnt(4768)=16:4179,17:323,18:152,19:50,20:33,21:18,22:6,23:1,24:2,26:1,27:1,28:1,31:1 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/18/21,Outliers=0,obl/obu=0/0) (0.302 ms/1625198509.416997) [ 1] 7.00-8.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.157/0.150/0.217/0.006 ms (4769/131061) 96.0 KByte 3974060 22923=489:18132:3533:568:78:23:36:64 [ 1] 7.00-8.00 sec F8-PDF: bin(w=10us):cnt(4769)=16:4228,17:317,18:137,19:45,20:21,21:14,22:7 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/17/21,Outliers=0,obl/obu=0/0) (0.217 ms/1625198510.34875) [ 1] 8.00-9.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.158/0.150/0.363/0.009 ms (4768/131072) 96.3 KByte 3960477 22677=472:17988:3377:533:92:50:64:101 [ 1] 8.00-9.00 sec F8-PDF: bin(w=10us):cnt(4768)=16:4194,17:253,18:173,19:62,20:32,21:27,22:12,23:8,24:3,25:2,28:1,37:1 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/18/23,Outliers=0,obl/obu=0/0) (0.363 ms/1625198511.392746) [ 1] 9.00-10.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.156/0.150/0.232/0.005 ms (4768/131082) 95.5 KByte 3993997 23174=396:18593:3590:461:50:13:25:46 [ 1] 9.00-10.00 sec F8-PDF: bin(w=10us):cnt(4768)=16:4378,17:234,18:113,19:21,20:10,21:6,22:4,24:2 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/17/20,Outliers=0,obl/obu=0/0) (0.232 ms/1625198512.528385) [ 1] 0.00-10.00 sec 5.82 GBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.158/0.148/1.832/0.033 ms (47685/131072) 96.3 KByte 3961002 226681=4616:178607:33803:7405:785:299:430:736 [ 1] 0.00-10.00 sec F8(f)-PDF: bin(w=10us):cnt(47685)=15:11,16:42378,17:3091,18:1344,19:376,20:206,21:126,22:54,23:22,24:13,25:4,26:2,27:4,28:4,29:1,30:2,31:1,35:1,37:1,39:1,49:1,52:1,55:1,67:1,74:1,85:1,90:2,94:1,95:1,97:1,100:1,103:1,104:1,113:1,114:1,115:2,116:1,118:1,119:2,120:1,125:2,126:1,127:1,132:1,133:1,134:1,137:2,138:1,140:1,142:2,143:1,144:1,149:1,153:1,157:1,159:1,184:1 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/17/22,Outliers=279,obl/obu=0/0) (1.832 ms/1625198502.626723) [rjmcmahon@ryzen3950 iperf2-code]$ iperf -c 192.168.1.94 -i 1 --trip-times -b 5g -e ------------------------------------------------------------ Client connecting to 192.168.1.94, TCP port 5001 with pid 69171 (1 flows) Write buffer size: 131072 Byte TCP window size: 85.0 KByte (default) ------------------------------------------------------------ [ 1] local 192.168.1.100%enp4s0 port 59146 connected with 192.168.1.94 port 5001 (MSS=1448) (trip-times) (sock=3) (ct=0.30 ms) on 2021-07-01 21:01:42 (PDT) [ ID] Interval Transfer Bandwidth Write/Err Rtry Cwnd/RTT NetPwr [ 1] 0.00-1.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4770/0 8 231K/111 us 5631373 [ 1] 1.00-2.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0 240K/120 us 5207927 [ 1] 2.00-3.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0 257K/114 us 5482029 [ 1] 3.00-4.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4769/0 0 257K/110 us 5682567 [ 1] 4.00-5.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0 257K/108 us 5786586 [ 1] 5.00-6.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0 257K/136 us 4595230 [ 1] 6.00-7.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4769/0 0 257K/111 us 5631373 [ 1] 7.00-8.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0 257K/131 us 4770621 [ 1] 8.00-9.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4769/0 0 257K/110 us 5682567 [ 1] 9.00-10.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0 257K/110 us 5681375 [ 1] 0.00-10.01 sec 5.82 GBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 47687/0 8 257K/110 us 5676364 [rjmcmahon@ryzen3950 iperf2-code]$ Bob On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 6:16 PM David P. Reed <dpr...@deepplum.com> wrote: > Well, nice that the folks doing the conference are willing to consider > that quality of user experience has little to do with signalling rate at > the physical layer or throughput of FTP transfers. > > > > But honestly, the fact that they call the problem "network quality" > suggests that they REALLY, REALLY don't understand the Internet isn't the > hardware or the routers or even the routing algorithms *to its users*. > > > > By ignoring the diversity of applications now and in the future, and the > fact that we DON'T KNOW what will be coming up, this conference will likely > fall into the usual trap that net-heads fall into - optimizing for some > imaginary reality that doesn't exist, and in fact will probably never be > what users actually will do given the chance. > > > > I saw this issue in 1976 in the group developing the original Internet > protocols - a desire to put *into the network* special tricks to optimize > ASR33 logins to remote computers from terminal concentrators (aka remote > login), bulk file transfers between file systems on different time-sharing > systems, and "sessions" (virtual circuits) that required logins. And then > trying to exploit underlying "multicast" by building it into the IP layer, > because someone thought that TV broadcast would be the dominant application. > > > > Frankly, to think of "quality" as something that can be "provided" by "the > network" misses the entire point of "end-to-end argument in system design". > Quality is not a property defined or created by The Network. If you want to > talk about Quality, you need to talk about users - all the users at all > times, now and into the future, and that's something you can't do if you > don't bother to include current and future users talking about what they > might expect to experience that they don't experience. > > > > There was much fighting back in 1976 that basically involved "network > experts" saying that the network was the place to "solve" such issues as > quality, so applications could avoid having to solve such issues. > > > > What some of us managed to do was to argue that you can't "solve" such > issues. All you can do is provide a framework that enables different uses > to *cooperate* in some way. > > > > Which is why the Internet drops packets rather than queueing them, and why > diffserv cannot work. > > (I know the latter is conftroversial, but at the moment, ALL of diffserv > attempts to talk about end-to-end applicaiton specific metrics, but never, > ever explains what the diffserv control points actually do w.r.t. what the > IP layer can actually control. So it is meaningless - another violation of > the so-called end-to-end principle). > > > > Networks are about getting packets from here to there, multiplexing the > underlying resources. That's it. Quality is a whole different thing. > Quality can be improved by end-to-end approaches, if the underlying network > provides some kind of thing that actually creates a way for end-to-end > applications to affect queueing and routing decisions, and more importantly > getting "telemetry" from the network regarding what is actually going on > with the other end-to-end users sharing the infrastructure. > > > > This conference won't talk about it this way. So don't waste your time. > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, June 30, 2021 8:12pm, "Dave Taht" <dave.t...@gmail.com> > said: > > > The program committee members are *amazing*. Perhaps, finally, we can > > move the bar for the internet's quality metrics past endless, blind > > repetitions of speedtest. > > > > For complete details, please see: > > https://www.iab.org/activities/workshops/network-quality/ > > > > Submissions Due: Monday 2nd August 2021, midnight AOE (Anywhere On Earth) > > Invitations Issued by: Monday 16th August 2021 > > > > Workshop Date: This will be a virtual workshop, spread over three days: > > > > 1400-1800 UTC Tue 14th September 2021 > > 1400-1800 UTC Wed 15th September 2021 > > 1400-1800 UTC Thu 16th September 2021 > > > > Workshop co-chairs: Wes Hardaker, Evgeny Khorov, Omer Shapira > > > > The Program Committee members: > > > > Jari Arkko, Olivier Bonaventure, Vint Cerf, Stuart Cheshire, Sam > > Crowford, Nick Feamster, Jim Gettys, Toke Hoiland-Jorgensen, Geoff > > Huston, Cullen Jennings, Katarzyna Kosek-Szott, Mirja Kuehlewind, > > Jason Livingood, Matt Mathias, Randall Meyer, Kathleen Nichols, > > Christoph Paasch, Tommy Pauly, Greg White, Keith Winstein. > > > > Send Submissions to: network-quality-workshop...@iab.org. > > > > Position papers from academia, industry, the open source community and > > others that focus on measurements, experiences, observations and > > advice for the future are welcome. Papers that reflect experience > > based on deployed services are especially welcome. The organizers > > understand that specific actions taken by operators are unlikely to be > > discussed in detail, so papers discussing general categories of > > actions and issues without naming specific technologies, products, or > > other players in the ecosystem are expected. Papers should not focus > > on specific protocol solutions. > > > > The workshop will be by invitation only. Those wishing to attend > > should submit a position paper to the address above; it may take the > > form of an Internet-Draft. > > > > All inputs submitted and considered relevant will be published on the > > workshop website. The organisers will decide whom to invite based on > > the submissions received. Sessions will be organized according to > > content, and not every accepted submission or invited attendee will > > have an opportunity to present as the intent is to foster discussion > > and not simply to have a sequence of presentations. > > > > Position papers from those not planning to attend the virtual sessions > > themselves are also encouraged. A workshop report will be published > > afterwards. > > > > Overview: > > > > "We believe that one of the major factors behind this lack of progress > > is the popular perception that throughput is the often sole measure of > > the quality of Internet connectivity. With such narrow focus, people > > don’t consider questions such as: > > > > What is the latency under typical working conditions? > > How reliable is the connectivity across longer time periods? > > Does the network allow the use of a broad range of protocols? > > What services can be run by clients of the network? > > What kind of IPv4, NAT or IPv6 connectivity is offered, and are there > firewalls? > > What security mechanisms are available for local services, such as DNS? > > To what degree are the privacy, confidentiality, integrity and > > authenticity of user communications guarded? > > > > Improving these aspects of network quality will likely depend on > > measurement and exposing metrics to all involved parties, including to > > end users in a meaningful way. Such measurements and exposure of the > > right metrics will allow service providers and network operators to > > focus on the aspects that impacts the users’ experience most and at > > the same time empowers users to choose the Internet service that will > > give them the best experience." > > > > > > -- > > Latest Podcast: > > > https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/ > > > > Dave Täht CTO, TekLibre, LLC > > _______________________________________________ > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > cerowrt-de...@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > > > _______________________________________________ > Make-wifi-fast mailing list > make-wifi-f...@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast -- This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. 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