I think we need the language of math here. It seems like the network power metric, introduced by Kleinrock and Jaffe in the late 70s, is something useful. Effective end/end queue depths per Little's law also seems useful. Both are available in iperf 2 from a test perspective. Repurposing test techniques to actual traffic could be useful. Hence the question around what exact telemetry is useful to apps making socket write() and read() calls.
Bob On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 10:07 AM Dave Taht <dave.t...@gmail.com> wrote: > In terms of trying to find "Quality" I have tried to encourage folk to > both read "zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance"[0], and Deming's > work on "total quality management". > > My own slice at this network, computer and lifestyle "issue" is aiming > for "imperceptible latency" in all things. [1]. There's a lot of > fallout from that in terms of not just addressing queuing delay, but > caching, prefetching, and learning more about what a user really needs > (as opposed to wants) to know via intelligent agents. > > [0] If you want to get depressed, read Pirsig's successor to "zen...", > lila, which is in part about what happens when an engineer hits an > insoluble problem. > [1] https://www.internetsociety.org/events/latency2013/ > > > > On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 6:16 PM David P. Reed <dpr...@deepplum.com> wrote: > > > > Well, nice that the folks doing the conference are willing to consider > that quality of user experience has little to do with signalling rate at > the physical layer or throughput of FTP transfers. > > > > > > > > But honestly, the fact that they call the problem "network quality" > suggests that they REALLY, REALLY don't understand the Internet isn't the > hardware or the routers or even the routing algorithms *to its users*. > > > > > > > > By ignoring the diversity of applications now and in the future, and the > fact that we DON'T KNOW what will be coming up, this conference will likely > fall into the usual trap that net-heads fall into - optimizing for some > imaginary reality that doesn't exist, and in fact will probably never be > what users actually will do given the chance. > > > > > > > > I saw this issue in 1976 in the group developing the original Internet > protocols - a desire to put *into the network* special tricks to optimize > ASR33 logins to remote computers from terminal concentrators (aka remote > login), bulk file transfers between file systems on different time-sharing > systems, and "sessions" (virtual circuits) that required logins. And then > trying to exploit underlying "multicast" by building it into the IP layer, > because someone thought that TV broadcast would be the dominant application. > > > > > > > > Frankly, to think of "quality" as something that can be "provided" by > "the network" misses the entire point of "end-to-end argument in system > design". Quality is not a property defined or created by The Network. If > you want to talk about Quality, you need to talk about users - all the > users at all times, now and into the future, and that's something you can't > do if you don't bother to include current and future users talking about > what they might expect to experience that they don't experience. > > > > > > > > There was much fighting back in 1976 that basically involved "network > experts" saying that the network was the place to "solve" such issues as > quality, so applications could avoid having to solve such issues. > > > > > > > > What some of us managed to do was to argue that you can't "solve" such > issues. All you can do is provide a framework that enables different uses > to *cooperate* in some way. > > > > > > > > Which is why the Internet drops packets rather than queueing them, and > why diffserv cannot work. > > > > (I know the latter is conftroversial, but at the moment, ALL of diffserv > attempts to talk about end-to-end applicaiton specific metrics, but never, > ever explains what the diffserv control points actually do w.r.t. what the > IP layer can actually control. So it is meaningless - another violation of > the so-called end-to-end principle). > > > > > > > > Networks are about getting packets from here to there, multiplexing the > underlying resources. That's it. Quality is a whole different thing. > Quality can be improved by end-to-end approaches, if the underlying network > provides some kind of thing that actually creates a way for end-to-end > applications to affect queueing and routing decisions, and more importantly > getting "telemetry" from the network regarding what is actually going on > with the other end-to-end users sharing the infrastructure. > > > > > > > > This conference won't talk about it this way. So don't waste your time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, June 30, 2021 8:12pm, "Dave Taht" <dave.t...@gmail.com> > said: > > > > > The program committee members are *amazing*. Perhaps, finally, we can > > > move the bar for the internet's quality metrics past endless, blind > > > repetitions of speedtest. > > > > > > For complete details, please see: > > > https://www.iab.org/activities/workshops/network-quality/ > > > > > > Submissions Due: Monday 2nd August 2021, midnight AOE (Anywhere On > Earth) > > > Invitations Issued by: Monday 16th August 2021 > > > > > > Workshop Date: This will be a virtual workshop, spread over three days: > > > > > > 1400-1800 UTC Tue 14th September 2021 > > > 1400-1800 UTC Wed 15th September 2021 > > > 1400-1800 UTC Thu 16th September 2021 > > > > > > Workshop co-chairs: Wes Hardaker, Evgeny Khorov, Omer Shapira > > > > > > The Program Committee members: > > > > > > Jari Arkko, Olivier Bonaventure, Vint Cerf, Stuart Cheshire, Sam > > > Crowford, Nick Feamster, Jim Gettys, Toke Hoiland-Jorgensen, Geoff > > > Huston, Cullen Jennings, Katarzyna Kosek-Szott, Mirja Kuehlewind, > > > Jason Livingood, Matt Mathias, Randall Meyer, Kathleen Nichols, > > > Christoph Paasch, Tommy Pauly, Greg White, Keith Winstein. > > > > > > Send Submissions to: network-quality-workshop...@iab.org. > > > > > > Position papers from academia, industry, the open source community and > > > others that focus on measurements, experiences, observations and > > > advice for the future are welcome. Papers that reflect experience > > > based on deployed services are especially welcome. The organizers > > > understand that specific actions taken by operators are unlikely to be > > > discussed in detail, so papers discussing general categories of > > > actions and issues without naming specific technologies, products, or > > > other players in the ecosystem are expected. Papers should not focus > > > on specific protocol solutions. > > > > > > The workshop will be by invitation only. Those wishing to attend > > > should submit a position paper to the address above; it may take the > > > form of an Internet-Draft. > > > > > > All inputs submitted and considered relevant will be published on the > > > workshop website. The organisers will decide whom to invite based on > > > the submissions received. Sessions will be organized according to > > > content, and not every accepted submission or invited attendee will > > > have an opportunity to present as the intent is to foster discussion > > > and not simply to have a sequence of presentations. > > > > > > Position papers from those not planning to attend the virtual sessions > > > themselves are also encouraged. A workshop report will be published > > > afterwards. > > > > > > Overview: > > > > > > "We believe that one of the major factors behind this lack of progress > > > is the popular perception that throughput is the often sole measure of > > > the quality of Internet connectivity. With such narrow focus, people > > > don’t consider questions such as: > > > > > > What is the latency under typical working conditions? > > > How reliable is the connectivity across longer time periods? > > > Does the network allow the use of a broad range of protocols? > > > What services can be run by clients of the network? > > > What kind of IPv4, NAT or IPv6 connectivity is offered, and are there > firewalls? > > > What security mechanisms are available for local services, such as DNS? > > > To what degree are the privacy, confidentiality, integrity and > > > authenticity of user communications guarded? > > > > > > Improving these aspects of network quality will likely depend on > > > measurement and exposing metrics to all involved parties, including to > > > end users in a meaningful way. Such measurements and exposure of the > > > right metrics will allow service providers and network operators to > > > focus on the aspects that impacts the users’ experience most and at > > > the same time empowers users to choose the Internet service that will > > > give them the best experience." > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Latest Podcast: > > > > https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/ > > > > > > Dave Täht CTO, TekLibre, LLC > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > > cerowrt-de...@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > > > > > > > -- > Latest Podcast: > https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/ > > Dave Täht CTO, TekLibre, LLC > _______________________________________________ > Make-wifi-fast mailing list > make-wifi-f...@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast -- This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. 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