"Debunking Bechtolsheim credibly would get a lot of attention to the bufferbloat cause, I suspect." - dpreed
"Why Big Data Needs Big Buffer Switches" - http://www.arista.com/assets/data/pdf/Whitepapers/BigDataBigBuffers-WP.pdf .. i think i've just gained access to a few networks with arista gear in the bottleneck path. On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 7:52 PM <dpr...@reed.com> wrote: > > So did anyone write a response debunking their paper? Their NS-2 simulation > is most likely the erroneous part of their analysis - the white paper would > not pass a review by qualified referees because there is no way to check > their results and some of what they say beggars belief. > > > > Bechtolsheim is one of those guys who can write any damn thing and it becomes > "truth" - mostly because he co-founded Sun. But that doesn't mean that he > can't make huge errors - any of us can. > > > > The so-called TCP/IP Bandwidth Capture effect that he refers to doesn't sound > like any capture effect I've ever heard of. There is an "Ethernet Capture > Effect" (which is cited), which is due to properties of CSMA/CD binary > exponential backoff, not anything to do with TCP's flow/congestion control. > So it has that "truthiness" that makes glib people sound like they know what > they are talking about, but I'd like to see a reference that says this is a > property of TCP! > > > > What's interesting is that the reference to the Ethernet Capture Effect in > that white paper proposes a solution that involves changing the backoff > algorithm slightly at the Ethernet level - NOT increasing buffer size! > > > > Another thing that would probably improve matters a great deal would be to > drop/ECN-mark packets when a contended output port on an Arista switch > develops a backlog. This will throttle TCP sources sharing the path. > > > > The comments in the white paper that say that ACK contention in TCP in the > reverse direction are the problem that causes the "so-called TCP/IP Bandwidth > Capture effect" that is invented by the authors appears to be hogwash of the > first order. > > > > Debunking Bechtolsheim credibly would get a lot of attention to the > bufferbloat cause, I suspect. > > > > > > On Monday, June 6, 2016 5:16pm, "Ketan Kulkarni" <ketku...@gmail.com> said: > > some time back they had this whitepaper - > "Why Big Data Needs Big Buffer Switches" > http://www.arista.com/assets/data/pdf/Whitepapers/BigDataBigBuffers-WP.pdf > the type of apps they talk about is big data, hadoop etc > > On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 11:37 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson <swm...@swm.pp.se> wrote: >> >> On Mon, 6 Jun 2016, Jonathan Morton wrote: >> >>> At 100ms buffering, their 10Gbps switch is effectively turning any DC it’s >>> installed in into a transcontinental Internet path, as far as peak latency >>> is concerned. Just because RAM is cheap these days… >> >> Nono, nononononono. I can tell you they're spending serious money on >> inserting this kind of buffering memory into these kinds of devices. Buying >> these devices without deep buffers is a lot lower cost. >> >> These types of switch chips either have on-die memory (usually 16MB or >> less), or they have very expensive (a direct cost of lowered port density) >> off-chip buffering memory. >> >> Typically you do this: >> >> ports ---|------- >> ports ---| | >> ports ---| chip | >> ports ---|------- >> >> Or you do this >> >> ports ---|------|---buffer >> ports ---| chip |---TCAM >> -------- >> >> or if you do a multi-linecard-device >> >> ports ---|------|---buffer >> | chip |---TCAM >> -------- >> | >> switch fabric >> >> (or any variant of them) >> >> So basically if you want to buffer and if you want large L2-L4 lookup >> tables, you have to sacrifice ports. Sacrifice lots of ports. >> >> So never say these kinds of devices add buffering because RAM is cheap. This >> is most definitely not why they're doing it. Buffer memory for them is >> EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE. >> >> -- >> Mikael Abrahamsson email: swm...@swm.pp.se >> _______________________________________________ >> Cerowrt-devel mailing list >> cerowrt-de...@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel >> > _______________________________________________ > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > cerowrt-de...@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel -- Latest Podcast: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/ Dave Täht CTO, TekLibre, LLC _______________________________________________ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
