I bow to all of your greater intellects & training.
I recognize the need to split the political from the physical on this
topic. My training is insufficient to explore many of the arcane
directions of science this leads and clearly my brain has gelled into
some kind of tapioca over the years. I still get random misfirings
originating from up in there somewhere enough that certain aspects
remain hard to accept, but I am willing to let this go. I'm opening my
mouth wide here for a heaping helping of crow and wonder who wants to
use the spoon & who gets the fork.
On Sep 16, 2006, at 4:19 PM, Gautam Mukunda wrote:
--- Gibson Jonathan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I have no idea if your accomplished friend is in on
anything. If I had
I would have directly said so. I wasn't trying to
besmirch her, I was
pointing out many people accept a
go-along-to-get-along mentality and
yet others find this quite handy for climbing the
ladders of power.
Greetings John. That _may_ be true. But think about
whta that means in this case. It means that she (and
I, and many other people I know) are so committed to
"climing the ladders of power" that we're willing to
countenance - and in fact, actively cover for - high
treason. Do you really think that's plausible?
No, I didn't. I really thought I stated that clearer.
I was speaking of people's willingness to look the other way when
confronted with something that may shake their world view.
Personally, I had never considered massive {in
repurcussion} internal
conspiracies from within until I read Tom Clancy's
"Red Storm Rising"
many years ago: facing an internal crisis a central
soviet cabal
orchestrates an attack on the schoolchildren by
terrorists as pretext
to hide other systemic failures by launching WWIII.
Yeah, but, that's a _novel_. I'm not saying
conspiracices never happen - they do - but it's a
novel. It's also a novel about the Soviet Union, and
most people would say the old Soviet Union operated a
little differently than the US does.
Of course, it was just to illustrate. It was my intro to a notion I'd
seen before through my love of history, but brought into a modern
context. I will say that human history is ripe with examples of
immense nastiness across cultures and mankind has proven remarkably
resilient to change. Unfortunately.
Webster Tarply's
role in uncovering NATO intelligence behind the
multiple false-flag
machine-gun terror attacks by "Reds" in Italy - and
one such kidnapping
which killed a government minister is part of the
Italian public
record. General Smedley "war is a racket" Butler
was approached by a
cabal of wealthy industrialists who sought to
overthrow Roosevelt in
the 1930's, but he refused and exposed them - with
no action taken to
imprison them: this ought to inform your opinion of
some timeless facts
about American power structures. Operation
Northwoods was concocted by
American generals in the early 1960's to hijack
planes and kill
Americans as pretext to inciting a Cuban invasion -
Kennedy nixed it
and fired the perps.
I'm not going to comment on any of these in particular
- except to point out that even if they occurred, they
all involve a handful of people, and they were all
_discovered_. Any 9/11 conspiracy would involve
thousands of people - it would have to be so large,
remember, that it would probably include someone as
insignificant as me - and _none of them_ would have
ever said a word about it. Don't you think that's an
entirely different kettle of fish?
I'd say it's not beyond the realm to conceal a great deal when
assumptions are accepted and people WANT to move on. As Robert
Heinlein said, "Man is not a rational creature, it is a rationalizing
one." I'll just say their are many things I've heard that the {MIT?
Sorry to be vague!} studies overstate the temperature and even
empirical duration of the heat - but without access to this, and
someone with some training to look into this I will stand aside.
I'm reminded of a saying Gore Vidal once said
describing how things
have long worked in D.C., "I won't rat out your
scheme, if you don't
rat out mine." Much mischief gets done all the time
by our so-called
protector class. Why insist black hearted and
aristo-minded people
could not possibly treat us as expendable chattel?
Well, I met Gore Vidal in June and let's just say, I'm
not impressed by his insight into how the government
works. I'm sure he likes to think that's how it
works, but that doesn't mean that it does.
Perhaps, but I have found a lot of correlation with my own experiences,
observations of humanity at political play, and his parables. This was
but one small anecdote he was told by his grandfather walking the
capital as the Stalin-like buildings of the Supreme Court and other
buildings were under construction. Perhaps he lacks a tactical
up-to-date savvy to swim in those waters with any purpose as he is out
of the sausage making machinery. I commonly refer to DC as Mordor
because it appears that to be a player there one must be willing to eat
one's young.
I have no doubt there was a massive explosion at the
Pentagon, but what
it was is open to question. I'd like to know if
your friend that close
to the impact actually saw the exact airline in
question since almost
nothing remained, even a dent where the engines
should have impacted -
let alone survived. A simple 3-6 clips showing the
impact from
different vantage points would clear up the issue a
great deal - the
absurd chunky digital frame or two fobbed off on us
last year did
nothing to quiet the concerns and as I recall only
raised the
temperature of discussion. Surely, you must wonder
why this event is
still shrouded when it could be so easily dispensed
with? The public
wonders, like it or not.
No, I really don't. It's not a case of like it or not
- the public wonders, but the public has been shown
the truth. Just out of curiosity, why do you think
there would be 3-6 video clips of the Pentagon? And
if there were, don't you think that this would be used
as evidence that there was a conspiracy, since it
would be strange if such clips exist. But if you need
an eyewitness report of the impact, such things do
exist:
http://www.nationalreview.com/robbins/robbins040902.asp-
for example.
My friend, thank God, was not at his desk at the
moment of impact - or he'd be dead, instead of the
American hero that he is.
Agreed. And heroes we do have.
I understood there was some two dozen clips confiscated. And I do
think releasing some of them would be very useful. Even as a long-time
video compositor, Photoshop pioneer, and tromp l'oeil muralist I would
welcome such evidence. How could it not dispel the rumor mill?
Like the three blind men feeling different parts of
an elephant, we can
all take different measures of the same item before
us. I do not doubt
your impressive credentials. I recognize your name
from the NOVA
update to 9-11 last week.
I have to admit my total confusion as to this one.
I've never been on NOVA in my life - and as far as I
know, I'm the only "Gautam Mukunda" in the United
States, so I don't know whom you might be confusing me
with. Whomever it was, though, I assure you it wasn't
me.
Ouch, my bad. I believe it was actually a fellow named "Gundaum"
I forgive you repeatedly spelling my own name wrong. :-]
4) Idiots don't get multiple degrees, but it is true
that people with
degrees can be fooled from real estate to oil gusher
deals as easily as
a plumber.
OK, this is certainly true. That's doesn't seem to me
to be the question, though. The question is, can they
be fooled on issues that are _directly relevant to
their field of expertise_. I'm sure you could fool a
lot of structural engineers on real estate or oil
gushers. But could you fool them on structurial
engineering? And if you couldn't, how come _not even
one_ has come out and said that the explanations of
what happened on that day don't make sense?
You have me there.
My friends who have been building steel structures while I polished
pixels these last decades are uncomfortable with the consensus, but
lack detailed access to the studies -or- time to pour over them to
their satisfaction. This is another reason I am willing to let this go
- pending some earth-shattering inputs that leave us all gaping.
Now, do you think you would be on that NOVA show
-or- invited to these
government study meetings if you were making
alternate-history noises?
Well, I wasn't on the show, and I've never been
invited to a government study meeting on the topic...
But, just for a moment, let's suppose I was. There's
another, more innocent explanation, though, right?
Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the
people who make the invitations are honestly
convinced, based on their professional expertise, that
there's no doubt about the significant events of 9/11.
Let's say that they think of people who believe there
is in the same way that biologists and geologists
think of people who believe the earth is 6000 years
old - that, whatever their other virtues and
accomplishments, they have nothing to say about
biology and geology. Do you understand then why they
wouldn't invite people who make these claims about
alternative explanations _even if they were acting
entirely honestly_? I'm just asking you, for the sake
of argument, to put yourself in those shoes.
Of course. A very good analogy.
This is what I refer to about the Bread & Who
Butters It issue, but at
an indirect and subconscious way: you have to admit
you have an
investment in this POV - for the many and good
reasons you've
outlined. As an exercise, how long do you think
you'd still be invited
to VIP symposia if you voiced strong disregard for
the current
premises, get votes of confidence by decision makers
for prominent
chairs or ever-more important panels {or
documentaries}?
OK, Yahoo, rather annoyingly, cut off the rest of the
post at this point, but I think I've made my major
point.
My largest one, though, was this. I'm not trying to
make an argument from authority - that I know what I'm
talking about, therefore you should believe me. That
would be absurd. I'm just a graduate student at MIT.
I don't have a security clearance. The only time I've
ever worked for the government was when I did research
at NIST (yes, I was there too - given the number of
links I have to institutions that would have to have
been involved in the coverup if there was one, the
whole thing would damn near have to have been planned
out in my living room). My parents were immigrants.
They have no family wealth or connections (in the US,
at any rate). I hold no positions in the government
and have little in the way of such connections myself.
Yet, for the conspiracy you're describing to have
occurred, it would have to have been so vast that it
_even included me_ - or at least included so many
people I know that a huge proportion of my friends
would have to have been lying to me and complicit,
again, in high treason and mass murder. When I
volunteered to go to Iraq for a position that was, by
all accounts, quite dangerous, _not one of them_ cared
enough to say "Hey man, just between you and me, don't
risk your life for this - it's all a put-up job."
I didn't think you were brandishing the diploma like a club, but I have
seen others do so and this was what I was referring to. It's
irrational, but tone and stance make a big impression when people watch
a debate regardless of the facts presented.
I admit that this is theoretically possible. It is
_also_ theoretically possible that I'm a three-headed
alien from Arcturus. Since only one member of the
list has ever met me face to face, I would argue that
it is _more_ likely that I am an alien than that there
exists a conspiracy involving literally thousands of
people, not one of whom has breathed a word in the
five years since the attacks, and which has also
evaded the most searching investigations in human
history. If I'm in on it, where are the leggy blondes
who you'd better believe would have been part of any
deal for my soul? :-) More seriously, my point is
really simple. What's more likely - that the
government was pretty incompetent about security, or
that thousands of Americans were willing to murder
thousands of their fellow Americans in exchange for -
well, what, exactly? And that tens of thousands of
other Americans, including every structural engineer
in the country, were all either part of the conspiracy
or so incompetent that they didn't see any traces of it?
Gautam Mukunda
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Freedom is not free"
http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com
LoL
I just knew there was something funny about your gait!
OK, I am not so sure all other engineers and materials experts are in
this page, but I'll grant you the number is small.
What motivated me initially was eye witness testimony of firemen
describing a succession of demolition-like boom-boom-booms preceding
the fall, other witnesses stating an explosion occurred in the basement
which filled a wrecked lobby with the burned & wounded the firemen saw
on arrival - and my own disbelief that all that high grade steel would
have the consistency of warm butter & allow a free-fall descent. These
singular and unique collapses make it worthy of intense scrutiny. Add
in questions of why the FBI cannot take this ObL video testimony of
surprise at how successful the attacks were, and other "facts"
attributed to him and put WTC/9-11 on his rap-sheet is a curiosity of
high order - and his awareness and plotting still does not rule out
that the BushCo affiliates allowed events to occur: those hijackers did
have many government connections and contacts. I'm still skeptical on
all these very same fronts, but willing to put it on the back burner
and leave it to the wee pilot light to keep warm through the years.
My deep distrust of this administration and the amazing links between
their activities, family roles - from head of security at WTC to prior
investments by ObL family members - and oh-so many other items I'll not
laundry list again has been it's own amazing journey. In seeking
motivations strong enough to commit such a crime I've found a good deal
of callous background on this cabal & their gleeful attempts to
roll-back the Magna Carta and bring a Brave New Medievalism to the
world only adds fuel to the fire - but that's really for another topic
and day.
I'll admit I have grown weary of feeling like I backpacked into a
remote village pub and started talking about werewolves - you know,
crickets chirping and scowls even as howling grows louder. I come to
all this cold stone sober although my wife appears ready to administer
some form of pharma upon me as I tug at sticky conspiracy webbing.
You'll all probably be glad to know she put me on
talk-radio/net-streaming restriction some time ago and listening to
music as I work instead has had benefits. My only real regret about
looking into this at length has been the time+space+energy it has taken
away from my own writing.
Bowed and accepting, but unbroken & still questioning,
Jonathan Gibson
www.formandfunction.com/word
_______________________________________________
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
