Although I share the idea that a certification doesn't really measures
knowledge or skill levels, I can assure you that in some countries(like
mine) if you dont have a paper stating that you know X or Y then people
don't tend to listen to you, and they end up using anything that a
pseudo-certified MS sysadmin tells them to use, and I'm not talking about a
business perspective here, since I work on a state college and even here
it's hard to make advocacy for OSS. So go for it, but to make it a worldwide
certificate I'd rather prefer all computer based evaluations only, written
evaluations would make it a little harder for people from 3rd world
countries like me considering shipping costs and all that goes along with
traditional mail. Following a model similar to braindamage.com would be a
nice way to start. By the way, I think that the evaluations should be on a
per distribution basis, since subjects like firewalls and/or using
ports,pkgsrc, etc, are too different from each other to try to include them
in an all BSD certificate.
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:18:47 -0500 (EST), bsdcert-request wrote
> Send BSDcert mailing list submissions to
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Ideas on BSD Certifications (Siju George)
> 2. Re: Ideas on BSD Certifications (Mike M. Volokhov)
> 3. Re: Thankyou Dru -- Some Doubts about Certifications (Dru)
> 4. Re: BSD Certification Group press release (Dru)
> 5. Re: Re: BSD Certification Group press release (Jim Brown)
> 6. Re: Re: BSD Certification Group press release (Ceri Davies)
> 7. Certification expiration thoughts (Mikel King)
> 8. Re: Certification expiration thoughts (RacerX)
> 9. Re: Certification expiration thoughts (Mikel King)
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:48:41 +0530
> From: Siju George <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [BSDcert] Ideas on BSD Certifications
> To: [email protected]
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:59:37 -0500, Jim Brown
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Can you provide a description in 100 words or less on what you think
> > the certification types and levels should be? One certification,
> > or separate for each BSD? Basic level per BSD, or basic level
> > combined, leaving advanced level per BSD? All paper tests?
> > All computer tests? Basic test by computer, advanced by lab?
> >
>
> O.K i'll send my 100 words essay soon :))
>
> meanwhle what about a CBTP ( Certified BSD Training Professional), a
> CBTI ( Certified BSD Training Institute ), and CBTC ( Certified BSD
> Testing Center) - to ensure they have the standard BSD LAB
> facilities?? Just a thought :)))
>
> thankyou
>
> kind regards
>
> Siju
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:32:42 +0200
> From: "Mike M. Volokhov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [BSDcert] Ideas on BSD Certifications
> To: Ceri Davies <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: [email protected]
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:35:43 +0000
> Ceri Davies <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> [snip]
> >
> > Hmm. Now I have to know netfilter/ipchains to get a BSD cert?
>
> For certification named "Linux to BSD Migration Specialist", shortly
> said, yes. The migration process must be as smooth as possible if
> business continuation is a one of primary approaches for company.
>
> --
> Mishka.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:07:19 -0500 (EST)
> From: Dru <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [BSDcert] Thankyou Dru -- Some Doubts about
> Certifications
> To: Siju George <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: [email protected]
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Siju George wrote:
>
> > Thankyou so much Dru for your posting about BSD Certification on
> > OpenBSD Advocacy :)
> >
> > Thankyou so much for al your tuorials and other writings on BSD :)))
>
> You're welcome.
>
> > I have some doubts about the way certifications will be organized.
> >
> > Will it be one single BSD certification for all the BSDs or will there
> > be Seperate certifications for Free, Open, Net and DragonFlyBSD???
>
> This remains to be seen. The Group is working on several methods to
> best assess the needs of the BSD community and employers seeking BSD
> professionals. As these methods are implemented, announcements will
> be made to this list so this list's members can stay involved.
>
> In the meantime, discussing and summarizing your thoughts regarding
> certification and how to implement it locally is very useful.
> Everyone comes from different backgrounds and points of view, but
> the commonalities help us to gauge what is important.
>
> Dru
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:01:10 -0500 (EST)
> From: Dru <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [BSDcert] Re: BSD Certification Group press release
> To: Anthony Atkielski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: [email protected]
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
> This has been carried over from freebsd-advocacy.
>
> Dru
>
> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
>
> > Chris writes:
> >
> >> I'm not entirely sure what this is 'sposed to mean. If it means what I
> >> think it does, I'll translate.
> >
> > It means that the real purpose of certification--no matter what type of
> > certification it might be--is to allow some people to make more money
> > unfairly to the detriment of others.
> >
> > It pains me to see something like FreeBSD going down this path.
> > Clearly, someone wants to make money off certifications, directly or
> > indirectly, and no scruples prevent them from attacking the open-source
> > domain to that end.
> >
> > Isn't it bad enough that this type of racket exists for proprietary
> > software?
> >
> > Certification is a matter of some people calling themselves experts,
> > devising tests to which only they are guaranteed to know all the
> > answers, then charging other people to take the tests in an attempt to
> > prove that they know exactly the same answers that the self-appointed
> > experts know. Unfortunately, this says nothing about anyone's objective
> > competence in the nominal domain of the test. It does make a lot of
> > money for the people who devise and administer the tests, and it also
> > restricts employment and artificially raises salaries for the few who
> > are willing to go through the hazing ritual of certification.
> >
> >> Never mind the BSD certs, concentrate on MS certs - after all, that's
> >> where the money is at.
> >
> > All certifications are designed to make money, nothing more and nothing
> > less.
> >
> >> Well for me, I will do the BSD certs only for personal satisfaction.
> >
> > And who writes the exams, and what makes you believe that they are the
> > ideal arbiters of competence?
> >
> >> Considering the types of user we BSD'ers seem to be (from my
> >> experiences) sure, we care about money, but I'm willing to bet that
> >> those of us that choose to do some sort of BSD certs, will be doing so
> >> for our own personal satisfaction.
> >
> > I don't need a certification for my own personal satisfaction. I look
> > to actual hands-on experience for that. Why trust a stranger to
> > "certify" me, which I can find out firsthand in an indisputable way
> > whether I'm competent or not?
> >
> >> That says much about the type of folks most of us are. At least
> >> in my mind.
> >
> > It shows that even users of BSDs can be manipulated and hoodwinked.
> > They may complain about the practices of a Microsoft or a Novell, but
> > change the name and they fall immediately under the spell.
> >
> > --
> > Anthony
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > [email protected] mailing list
> > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy
> > To unsubscribe, send any mail to
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:22:24 -0500
> From: Jim Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [BSDcert] Re: BSD Certification Group press release
> To: [email protected]
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> * Dru <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005-03-17 10:53]:
> >
> > This has been carried over from freebsd-advocacy.
> >
> > Dru
> >
> > On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> >
> > >Chris writes:
> > >
> > >>I'm not entirely sure what this is 'sposed to mean. If it means what I
> > >>think it does, I'll translate.
> > >
> > >It means that the real purpose of certification--no matter what type of
> > >certification it might be--is to allow some people to make more money
> > >unfairly to the detriment of others.
> > >
> > >It pains me to see something like FreeBSD going down this path.
> > >Clearly, someone wants to make money off certifications, directly or
> > >indirectly, and no scruples prevent them from attacking the open-source
> > >domain to that end.
> > >
> > >Isn't it bad enough that this type of racket exists for proprietary
> > >software?
>
> [rant deleted]
>
> I don't subscribe to -advocacy. Is anyone responding?
>
> Jim B.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:25:54 +0000
> From: Ceri Davies <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [BSDcert] Re: BSD Certification Group press release
> To: [email protected]
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2005 at 11:22:24AM -0500, Jim Brown wrote:
> > * Dru <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005-03-17 10:53]:
> > >
> > > This has been carried over from freebsd-advocacy.
> > >
> > > Dru
> > >
> > > On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> > [rant deleted]
> >
> > I don't subscribe to -advocacy. Is anyone responding?
>
> I wouldn't waste your time. Anthony is a crank.
>
> Ceri
> --
> Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm
> not sure about the former. -- Einstein (attrib.)
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:32:18 -0500
> From: Mikel King <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [BSDcert] Certification expiration thoughts
> To: [email protected]
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> First I would like to suggest that we attack one subject per thread.
> I honestly am getting quite confused with the back and forth in a
> disconnected fashion.
>
> Ok that said I was thinking about the cert expirations and here's
> something to consider;
>
> Let's say we have the basic universal BSD certs, and some
> specialized certs.
>
> These would require a recert at the highest level attained once
> every two years
> 1. BSD User
> 2. BSD Jr Admin
> 3. BSD Sr Admin
>
> Specializations that do expire;
> 1. Advanced Security Admin
> 2. Advance DB Admin
> 3. Advanced <INSERT NAME HERE> Admin
>
> Specialized OS Specific Certification that do not need to expire
> because once the track has been closed there will not be any changes
> made.
> 1. FreeBSD 4.x Track
> 2. FreeBSD 5.x Track
> 3. NetBSD 2.x Track
> 4. OpenBSD 3.x Track
>
> Ok so what's everyone's thoughts on this idea? One advantage of
> breaking the certs down into smaller subcerts is that they would be
> far easier to maintain and enhance. Also by doing an OS Specified
> cert we would only need to change that track when a major rev
> happens thus maintaining the base levels.
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Mikel King
> Optimized Computer Solutions, INC
> 39 West Fourteenth Street
> Second Floor
> New York, NY 10011
> http://www.ocsny.com
> t:212.727.2100x132
>
> +------------------------------------------+
> You may like them. You will see. You may
> like them in a tree.
> http://www.FreeBSD.org
> http://www.OpenOffice.org
> http://www.Mozilla.org
> +------------------------------------------+
> How do you spell cooperation? Pessimists use
> each other, but optimists help each other.
> Collaboration feeds your spirit, while
> competition only stokes your ego. You'll
> find the best way to get along.
> +------------------------------------------+
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:05:09 -0600 (CST)
> From: RacerX <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [BSDcert] Certification expiration thoughts
> To: Mikel King <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: [email protected]
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
> On Thu, 17 Mar 2005, Mikel King wrote:
>
> > First I would like to suggest that we attack one subject per thread.
> > I honestly am getting quite confused with the back and forth in a
> > disconnected fashion.
> >
> > Ok that said I was thinking about the cert expirations and here's
something
> > to consider;
> >
> > Let's say we have the basic universal BSD certs, and some specialized
certs.
> >
> > These would require a recert at the highest level attained once every
two
> > years
> > 1. BSD User
> > 2. BSD Jr Admin
> > 3. BSD Sr Admin
>
> Interesting concepts. As to the above, does being an admin (and
> certed) require a retesting every 2 years? If however, the admin
> part of BSD changes readically (and I don't think it doesnt) then I
> can see this.
>
> I'm unsure how this one ought to work. Perhaps just for the "admin"
> part of this, this outh to be open ended.
>
> >
> > Specializations that do expire;
> > 1. Advanced Security Admin
> > 2. Advance DB Admin
> > 3. Advanced <INSERT NAME HERE> Admin
>
> I tend to agree here. As time goes on, so does the requirments of
> locking down a server or box. Look how much ipfw has changed in just
> a few years. I tend to think this could fall under the 2 year
expiration/renewal.
>
> > Specialized OS Specific Certification that do not need to expire because
once
> > the track has been closed there will not be any changes made.
> > 1. FreeBSD 4.x Track
> > 2. FreeBSD 5.x Track
> > 3. NetBSD 2.x Track
> > 4. OpenBSD 3.x Track
>
> This make perfect sence to me. However, having them expire
> completely? Let's consider the folks that remain on older releases.
> Does this mean that becasue they choose to stay on say 4.x, that
> they ought not seek someone that has a cert for 4.x? If it expires,
> then they can't - if you know what I mean.
>
> > Ok so what's everyone's thoughts on this idea? One advantage of breaking
the
> > certs down into smaller subcerts is that they would be far easier to
maintain
> > and enhance. Also by doing an OS Specified cert we would only need to
change
> > that track when a major rev happens thus maintaining the base levels.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Cheers,
> > Mikel King
> > Optimized Computer Solutions, INC
> > 39 West Fourteenth Street
> > Second Floor
> > New York, NY 10011
> > http://www.ocsny.com
> > t:212.727.2100x132
>
> My thoughts of course...
>
> Best regards,
> Chris
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:18:14 -0500
> From: Mikel King <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [BSDcert] Certification expiration thoughts
> To: [email protected]
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> RacerX wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 17 Mar 2005, Mikel King wrote:
> >
> >> First I would like to suggest that we attack one subject per thread.
> >> I honestly am getting quite confused with the back and forth in a
> >> disconnected fashion.
> >>
> >> Ok that said I was thinking about the cert expirations and here's
> >> something to consider;
> >>
> >> Let's say we have the basic universal BSD certs, and some specialized
> >> certs.
> >>
> >> These would require a recert at the highest level attained once every
> >> two years
> >> 1. BSD User
> >> 2. BSD Jr Admin
> >> 3. BSD Sr Admin
> >
> >
> > Interesting concepts. As to the above, does being an admin (and
> > certed) require a retesting every 2 years? If however, the admin part
> > of BSD changes readically (and I don't think it doesnt) then I can see
> > this.
> >
> > I'm unsure how this one ought to work. Perhaps just for the "admin"
> > part of this, this outh to be open ended.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Specializations that do expire;
> >> 1. Advanced Security Admin
> >> 2. Advance DB Admin
> >> 3. Advanced <INSERT NAME HERE> Admin
> >
> >
> > I tend to agree here. As time goes on, so does the requirments of
> > locking down a server or box. Look how much ipfw has changed in just a
> > few years. I tend to think this could fall under the 2 year
> > expiration/renewal.
> >
> >> Specialized OS Specific Certification that do not need to expire
> >> because once the track has been closed there will not be any changes
> >> made.
> >> 1. FreeBSD 4.x Track
> >> 2. FreeBSD 5.x Track
> >> 3. NetBSD 2.x Track
> >> 4. OpenBSD 3.x Track
> >
> >
> > This make perfect sence to me. However, having them expire completely?
> > Let's consider the folks that remain on older releases. Does this mean
> > that becasue they choose to stay on say 4.x, that they ought not seek
> > someone that has a cert for 4.x? If it expires, then they can't - if
> > you know what I mean.
>
> That's exactly why I thought these shouldn't expire, and exactly why
> I thought we should have a different track per major release.
> Ideally let's say you certified all the way upto Sr Admin NetBSD 2.x
> this year and next year 3.x is realesed, well you Sr Admin cert is
> still good for another year, and if you'd like or need to you could
> then cert in NetBSD
> 3.x and now carry both, then the following year recert as a Sr
> Admin...I think this would be a simple expiration scheme.
>
> There I go again throwing things at the wall. So let's see if it
sticks...:D
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Mikel King
> Optimized Computer Solutions, INC
> 39 West Fourteenth Street
> Second Floor
> New York, NY 10011
> http://www.ocsny.com
> t:212.727.2100x132
>
> +------------------------------------------+
> You may like them. You will see. You may
> like them in a tree.
> http://www.FreeBSD.org
> http://www.OpenOffice.org
> http://www.Mozilla.org
> +------------------------------------------+
> How do you spell cooperation? Pessimists use
> each other, but optimists help each other.
> Collaboration feeds your spirit, while
> competition only stokes your ego. You'll
> find the best way to get along.
> +------------------------------------------+
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> End of BSDcert Digest, Vol 3, Issue 11
> **************************************
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[BSDcert] Re: BSDcert Digest, Vol 3, Issue 11
Systems Admin Depto. de Fisica UNAH Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:25:33 -0800
