Hi Recently there was a message on group about this, but did not get much response, but there was good amount of discussion on Facebook, I am posting that here for benefit of the members who do not check Facebook regularly.
Regards, Vijay ----------------------------------------------- Kishen Das For people who are travelling internationally, I suggest them to take photos of Indian butterfly collection, if they come across one. There might be rare butterflies in those collections. Also, people who post rare and beautiful butterflies, please do not mention the exact location, as it makes it easy for illegal collectors. <http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_160711023980426&view=permalink&id=179218255463036> Subscribe - - Peter Smetacek Dear Kishen, I read your recent post with interest: somehow it struck me as contradictory: one one hand, you want people travelling abroad to photograph Indian butterfly collections in the hope that there might be rare butterflies in those collections. (You, however, mention nothing about obtaining the data on those butterflies, which, to me, would be the really important thing). On the other hand, you urge people who post photos of rare and beautiful butterflies not to mention the exact location, as it makes it easy for illegal collectors. To my mind, this would take away all scientific value from the photos and reduce them to "Art", something to be enjoyed for its intrinsic beauty but otherwise meaningless. I think the bogey of "illegal collectors" has been overplayed and used by an inefficient government establishment to cover its sins of omission, and by a credulous public to slot themselves into opposers of all killing, hence true "conservationists"- I think the Zoological Survey has been around for a century or so, yet we still have only a very skethy idea of the distirbution of most Indian creatures. The distribution of birds and mammals was clarified mainly by private initiative. Similarly, the distribution of most insect groups has been undertaken by extra-Indian agencies, mainly in the First World. Of the over 50 new butterfly taxa described from India and neighbouring countries post-1947, I was the first Indian to describe a new butterfly (a sub-species), as late as 2006. Arun Pratap Singh, author of the excellent recent book on butterflies, described a second taxon (a species). However, his is still awaiting confirmation. The description of a third new butterfly will be published next month. Next, what, by definition, is an "illegal collector"? Government is only authorised to issue permits for collecting in protected areas. Outside such areas, if the insect is not on the Schedules of the wildlife Protection Act, there is no one who can either give you a permit, or legally prevent you from taking a specimen. If this were so, you can imagine that every pesticide or insecticide applying farmer would be an "illegal killer", if not an "illegal collector". To my mind, the paranoia concerning collecting specimens by private individuals has been extremely counter-productive and is largely responsible for the state we are in today, where specimens of many creatures, even butterflies, do not exist in India and we have to refer to people (foreigners, colonists, illegal collectors, outsiders, call them what you will)who have taken the trouble to locate and preserve specimens of "our" wildlife. If we wish to claim responsibility for creatures resident within the boundariies if India, first we should ask ourselves what we know about them. If we are honest with ourselves, we should be ashamed of the little we know, while preventing others from obtaining the knowledge that will probably prove essential to the survival of that species in the long run. If we had a strong scientific base in this country, there would be no reason for "illegal collectors" to come here- they would much rather stay in their respective countries or states and simply ask questions rather than undertake the ardous trip to the creature's habitat and attempt to obtain specimens of that creature. You remember the two Czechs apprehended by the Forest Department in Darjeeling a few years ago: the court called the researcher a "victim of circumstances" and let him go with a nominal fine for this same reason. (the dealer was correctly sentenced to a jail term). There has to be a distinction between conservationists and "opposers of killing". For the latter, there is the Jain religion whose proponents, notably, go out of their way not to kill any creature, and, more notably, do not force their views on others. For putative conservationists, knowledge of what they are protecting is essential and, until the taxonomy and distribution of the creatures concerned is not clarified, specimens are a must. Birds do not require specimens any longer since the taxonomy was clarified on the basis of very many specimens taken during the first half of the 20th century. This is not the case with insects, yet. When we are certain of the taxonomy, thereafter photos of the taxa will suffice to add to the edifice of knowledge-until then, please do not be misled or, more important, mislead about the pressing need for collection of specimens with valid data for the conservation of the concerned taxa in India. Therefore, I would urge all persons posting photos of rare or common butterflies, please ensure that the data is complete, so that the effort of photographing that creature is justified and adds to the (rather puny) edifice of knowledge that we Indians have managed to gather about "our" wildlife. For people collecting with a view to sell, I think the domestic market for butterflies is not large, and there are only a limited number of exits from the country, which, if monitored effectively, should easily prevent outgoing wildlife articles. I think it is not correct to lose a large amount of painstakingly obtained data for fear of potential thieves. Sorry about this long diatribe, Kishen, but in the field of Lepidoptera, I know just how little we know and it makes me mad. Some years ago, thousands of hectare of forest burnt in Uttarakhand; when asked about assessment of damage by the Press, the Forest Department stated, "Some medicinal plants may have been destroyed." That is all they could say, for the simple reason that they have no data with which to work. Friday at 10:14pm <http://www.facebook.com/browse/?type=likes&id=179232472128281> - <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=592924824> Kishen Das There are groups of butterfly collectors in India who regularly collect in Kerala and some parts of North East. I am pretty sure these groups will be there in ButterflyIndia Facebook and Yahoo groups. I agree that the complete details should be revealed, whenever we post the photo, but I am not sure in the long term what is good for butterflies !!! I recetly read couple of books on butterfly smuggling and I am concerned and hence the post. Saturday at 1:17am ·<http://www.facebook.com/browse/?type=likes&id=179255715459290> - <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1642953000> Peter Smetacek Kishen, until now, there has been no case of butterflies being driven to extinction due to collection. If this had any merit, you could be certain that it would be recommended to farmers, etc to protect crops. On the other hand, there are many recorded cases where butterflies have been driven to extinction or near extinction through habitat destruction, either urbanisation or else simple forest clearing by villagers. If one knows that a particular patch of forest harbours something unusual, then one can make the necessary moves to protect that habitat, as I am trying to do for Jones Estate. If one does not have any data, then one might have a gut feeling that one is losing some valuable heritage, but there is little one can do about it. Saturday at 2:01am - <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=592924824> Kishen Das In any case I just said don't mention the exact location and not to leave out the location details completely. I myself is not convinced that we can save habitats in India highlighting the butterfly diversity. And hence thought we at least should not aid illegal collection in the name of science and natural history. My age is less than your field experience. So, I just hope its fine to reveal the exact location details, going by your words, considering your experience and intentions. Don't get me wrong here. I am completely for collection, if done legally by a bunch of trained entomologists. Most of the illegal collection is shipped outside India. So, I am somehow not comfortable, associating that to science and claim that it helps in the long run. And also, all scientists don't care for butterflies as much as they care about their publications. Saturday at 2:22am - <http://www.facebook.com/cjgblue> Chandan Jyoti Gogoi Dear Peter Smetacek. I agree with you partially. Revealing information to researchers, policy makers and environmentalist is a good part. But also the same can be used by butterfly smugglers. As everybody is aware that government is not much concerned with saving little creatures. But researchers who have knowledge of a particular species which is commercially more valuable, must protect its habitat by hiding information about its location. A few years back, Shillong, Capital of Meghalaya was the illegal hub of butterfly and wild animal products. It was closed down after a few years of redtapism. And I believe it might have just moved to another location.Now, can I let the people know, exactly where to find Bhutan Glory, Peal's Palmfly, so that people can illegally profit from it ? No. Saturday at 2:25am - <http://www.facebook.com/Bittusahgal> Bittu Sahgal Which brings me back to a basic issue that concerns me Peter (how are you by the way?): We are not getting enough information and help from lepidopterists whose knowledge of flowering, climate, egg laying and emergence, absense-presence and man-made habitat changes could help us track the pace and measure of at least this one vital marker for climate change. Saturday at 3:51am - <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1642953000> Peter Smetacek Dear Kishen, thank you for this. Please do not make allowances for my age- your experience is as valid as mine! You will know that even living in an area, one does not see rare butterflies often. What chance do you think an ill-intentioned person has of coming across a rare butterfly, even if the exact location and flying time is known? I agree that conspicuous butterflies like the Bhutan Gloray and kaiser i Hind, for which there will always be a market, should be protected by a veil of silence: however, rare skippers, moths, blues and satyrs: there is very little market for these and an urgent need to know exactly where they occur. All too often, the only information we have about an insect is that it occurs in Assam, which at that time, included everything east of Alipurduar as far as Nagaland. So, I say, share knowledge-that is the only way to progress. That has been our mistake in the past, when a generation of scientists clung to their little secrets and a "dark age" descended upon us, for which there is very litle to show. Follow the Journal of the Bombay Natural History Society and you will see what I mean. Publications are important to Science. Remember that from the 10th century onwards in Europe, there were all sorts of charlatans roaming about and preying upon the innocent. After the Inquisition, there was very little knowledge left, since everyone who knew anything about nature was either burnt or kept very quiet for fear of being burnt alive. Then, the obvious next step was to start the process of learning about nature anew-this time with a basic rule that everything I find, that you can find under similar circumstances, is true, or "Science", and everything else is a mere "claim". Today, you will know that there are many claims being propounded by persons with ulterior motives. Publication in respected peer reviewed journals is the only way of dealing such charlatans out of the game. So it is true that publications are more important to scientists than butterflies. However, it is the job of the scientist to discover facts about nature; different facets of society then use this information according to their requirement. By publishing, the scientist has placed his discovery before society- it is up to the rest to follow things up. If the scientist gets involved with implementing protection programmes or things like that, it will detract from his/her ability to benefit society by the training he/he has received. etc. sorry for this, Kishen. YOu certainly know most of this, but I need to get it off my chest..... Saturday at 11:37am - <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1642953000> Peter Smetacek Dear Chandan, I have covered your points in the reply below to Kishen. You are correct. Nothing is "all the way". There are always shades of truth, things to say and things better left unsaid. We do not have many marketable species here in U...See More Saturday at 11:42am - <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1642953000> Peter Smetacek Dear Bittu, good to hear from you. All fine here. I would need to know who "we" refers to in your message, in order to hellp you better. In the meantime, here are some of my publications that deal with the things you mention: 1993. Catopsili...See More Saturday at 11:48am - <http://www.facebook.com/Bittusahgal> Bittu Sahgal We is anyone working on climate and biodiversity issues from the point of view of trying to influence policy decisions in favour of protecting ecosystems and species Peter. India is working furiously at converting natural India to cash and in the process pollinators such as butterflies and bees, river and lake cleaning organisms, elephants... everything is going down the tubes. Saturday at 11:53am - <http://www.facebook.com/Bittusahgal> Bittu Sahgal Thanks for the references. What would be terrific is for people who know the subject to draw the inferences in a way that would allow a policy maker from Bihar, Chattisgarh, or New Delhi to understand the issue and be guided by the advice. Write a piece for us in Sanctuary. Basically establishing the point that butterflies are the canaries in the coal mine for the Indian subcontinent. Saturday at 11:55am - <http://www.facebook.com/Bittusahgal> Bittu Sahgal And do send me those papers by email if that is easy Peter. Saturday at 11:56am - <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=592924824> Kishen Das @ Peter sir, I was very specific about rare and beautiful butterflies. It was not a generic statement. I also said don't reveal the exact location. I took 3 days to decide how to post that suggestion !!! I think we both feel the same. To conclude I am far more comfortable sharing interesting rare findings of beautiful butterflies within a closed group and directly working with policy makers, than posting it in FB and getting 100s of "likes", probably also getting the attention ill-intentioned people. May be you should write about your efforts of saving the estate around you, to Sanctuary. If you know the inner-circles of scientific editors, you will already know that politics and personal opinions prevail over conservation and collaborations !!! This is more true when it comes to topics like global warming, climate change and geographical shifts of species, as they are directly associated with project fundig. Saturday at 12:18pm -- Enjoy
