Hello
Very interesting post. This is an old discussion. People listen to his heart
more than to the facts. I think that Peter Smetacek is absolutely right. People
posting photos must indicate the location.
Scare because somebody is going to use that information to go there and collect
specimens. If it is a very local specie, just mention the county if you wish.
However, it is necessary to notice that for many groups of butterflies, and
almost for all insects, a photo (or even worst, a "watcher's" guess) is not
enough to make an accurate determination of the species.
Scare of extinction. Believe me it is not a chance in hell than one individual
with a net can provoke the extinction of a butterfly species even it is very
local. The critical factor for the survival of butterflies is the host plant.
So protecting the habitat you protect the butterflies and beyond. Otherwise
i.e. seasonal extinction of butterflies is quite common. I live in Washington
DC, and every year at the end of the season one day comes the cold, and the
butterflies just disappear. Every year, the populations of some species are
replenished with migrants from the South. So, protect individual species
(except for vertebrates with long generation time) is meaningless.
Disgusted that somebody is going to make a profit?. Take down the limitations
for a reasonable collecting of invertebrates. These laws in India and elsewhere
are the ones provoking the smuggling, increasing the profits of the smugglers,
and make then to concentrate in the endangered species (the ones that deserve
the risk). The ridiculous prices for some Indian butterfly species started with
the regulations in exporting specimens. It is impossible to find an amateur in
South India to make a specimen exchange. I was looking for years for a common
species from South India (Vanessa indica pholoe), a very common specie that
actually is favored for human degradation of habitats, and for me has been
impossible. However, rare species of India are no so rare in the market as
common species are.
Regards
Jesus
--- In [email protected], Vijay Barve <barvevijay@...> wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> Recently there was a message on group about this, but did not get much
> response, but there was good amount of discussion on Facebook, I am posting
> that here for benefit of the members who do not check Facebook regularly.
>
> Regards,
>
> Vijay
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> Kishen Das
> For people who are travelling internationally, I suggest them to take photos
> of Indian butterfly collection, if they come across one.
> There might be rare butterflies in those collections.
>
> Also, people who post rare and beautiful butterflies, please do not mention
> the exact location, as it makes it easy for illegal collectors.
> <http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_160711023980426&view=permalink&id=179218255463036>
> Subscribe
>
> -
> - Peter Smetacek
> Dear Kishen,
> I read your recent post with interest: somehow it struck me as
> contradictory: one one hand, you want people travelling abroad
> to photograph
> Indian butterfly collections in the hope that there might be rare
> butterflies in those collections. (You, however, mention nothing about
> obtaining the data on those butterflies, which, to me, would be
> the really
> important thing).
>
> On the other hand, you urge people who post photos of rare and
> beautiful butterflies not to mention the exact location, as it
> makes it easy
> for illegal collectors. To my mind, this would take away all scientific
> value from the photos and reduce them to "Art", something to be
> enjoyed for
> its intrinsic beauty but otherwise meaningless.
>
> I think the bogey of "illegal collectors" has been overplayed and used
> by an inefficient government establishment to cover its sins of
> omission,
> and by a credulous public to slot themselves into opposers of
> all killing,
> hence true "conservationists"- I think the Zoological Survey has
> been around
> for a century or so, yet we still have only a very skethy idea of the
> distirbution of most Indian creatures. The distribution of birds
> and mammals
> was clarified mainly by private initiative. Similarly, the
> distribution of
> most insect groups has been undertaken by extra-Indian agencies,
> mainly in
> the First World.
>
> Of the over 50 new butterfly taxa described from India and
> neighbouring countries post-1947, I was the first Indian to
> describe a new
> butterfly (a sub-species), as late as 2006. Arun Pratap Singh,
> author of the
> excellent recent book on butterflies, described a second taxon
> (a species).
> However, his is still awaiting confirmation. The description of
> a third new
> butterfly will be published next month.
>
> Next, what, by definition, is an "illegal collector"? Government is
> only authorised to issue permits for collecting in protected
> areas. Outside
> such areas, if the insect is not on the Schedules of the
> wildlife Protection
> Act, there is no one who can either give you a permit, or legally
> prevent
> you from taking a specimen. If this were so, you can imagine that every
> pesticide or insecticide applying farmer would be an "illegal killer",
> if
> not an "illegal collector".
>
> To my mind, the paranoia concerning collecting specimens by private
> individuals has been extremely counter-productive and is largely
> responsible
> for the state we are in today, where specimens of many creatures, even
> butterflies, do not exist in India and we have to refer to people
> (foreigners, colonists, illegal collectors, outsiders, call them what
> you
> will)who have taken the trouble to locate and preserve specimens of
> "our"
> wildlife. If we wish to claim responsibility for creatures
> resident within
> the boundariies if India, first we should ask ourselves what we
> know about
> them. If we are honest with ourselves, we should be ashamed of
> the little we
> know, while preventing others from obtaining the knowledge that will
> probably prove essential to the survival of that species in the long
> run.
>
> If we had a strong scientific base in this country, there would be no
> reason for "illegal collectors" to come here- they would much
> rather stay in
> their respective countries or states and simply ask questions rather
> than
> undertake the ardous trip to the creature's habitat and attempt to
> obtain
> specimens of that creature.
>
> You remember the two Czechs apprehended by the Forest Department in
> Darjeeling a few years ago: the court called the researcher a "victim of
> circumstances" and let him go with a nominal fine for this same
> reason. (the
> dealer was correctly sentenced to a jail term).
>
> There has to be a distinction between conservationists and "opposers
> of killing". For the latter, there is the Jain religion whose
> proponents,
> notably, go out of their way not to kill any creature, and, more
> notably, do
> not force their views on others. For putative conservationists,
> knowledge of
> what they are protecting is essential and, until the taxonomy and
> distribution of the creatures concerned is not clarified, specimens are
> a
> must. Birds do not require specimens any longer since the taxonomy was
> clarified on the basis of very many specimens taken during the
> first half of
> the 20th century. This is not the case with insects, yet. When we are
> certain of the taxonomy, thereafter photos of the taxa will
> suffice to add
> to the edifice of knowledge-until then, please do not be misled or, more
> important, mislead about the pressing need for collection of
> specimens with
> valid data for the conservation of the concerned taxa in India.
>
> Therefore, I would urge all persons posting photos of rare or common
> butterflies, please ensure that the data is complete, so that
> the effort of
> photographing that creature is justified and adds to the (rather puny)
> edifice of knowledge that we Indians have managed to gather about "our"
> wildlife.
>
> For people collecting with a view to sell, I think the domestic market
> for butterflies is not large, and there are only a limited
> number of exits
> from the country, which, if monitored effectively, should easily prevent
> outgoing wildlife articles. I think it is not correct to lose a
> large amount
> of painstakingly obtained data for fear of potential thieves.
>
> Sorry about this long diatribe, Kishen, but in the field of
> Lepidoptera, I know just how little we know and it makes me mad.
> Some years
> ago, thousands of hectare of forest burnt in Uttarakhand; when
> asked about
> assessment of damage by the Press, the Forest Department stated, "Some
> medicinal plants may have been destroyed." That is all they
> could say, for
> the simple reason that they have no data with which to work.
> Friday at 10:14pm
> <http://www.facebook.com/browse/?type=likes&id=179232472128281>
> - <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=592924824>
> Kishen Das
> There are groups of butterfly collectors in India who regularly
> collect in Kerala and some parts of North East. I am pretty sure these
> groups will be there in ButterflyIndia Facebook and Yahoo groups. I
> agree
> that the complete details should be revealed, whenever we post the
> photo, but I am not sure in the long term what is good for
> butterflies !!! I
> recetly read couple of books on butterfly smuggling and I am
> concerned and
> hence the post.
> Saturday at 1:17am
> ·<http://www.facebook.com/browse/?type=likes&id=179255715459290>
> - <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1642953000>
> Peter Smetacek
> Kishen, until now, there has been no case of butterflies being driven
> to extinction due to collection. If this had any merit, you
> could be certain
> that it would be recommended to farmers, etc to protect crops.
> On the other
> hand, there are many recorded cases where butterflies have been driven
> to extinction or near extinction through habitat destruction, either
> urbanisation or else simple forest clearing by villagers. If one
> knows that
> a particular patch of forest harbours something unusual, then
> one can make
> the necessary moves to protect that habitat, as I am trying to
> do for Jones
> Estate. If one does not have any data, then one might have a gut feeling
> that one is losing some valuable heritage, but there is little one can
> do
> about it.
> Saturday at 2:01am
> - <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=592924824>
> Kishen Das
> In any case I just said don't mention the exact location and not to
> leave out the location details completely. I myself is not
> convinced that we
> can save habitats in India highlighting the butterfly diversity.
> And hence
> thought we at least should not aid illegal collection in the name of
> science and natural history. My age is less than your field
> experience. So,
> I just hope its fine to reveal the exact location details, going by your
> words, considering your experience and intentions. Don't get me
> wrong here.
> I am completely for collection, if done legally by a bunch of trained
> entomologists. Most of the illegal collection is shipped outside
> India. So,
> I am somehow not comfortable, associating that to science and
> claim that it
> helps in the long run. And also, all scientists don't care for
> butterflies
> as much as they care about their publications.
> Saturday at 2:22am
> - <http://www.facebook.com/cjgblue>
> Chandan Jyoti Gogoi
> Dear Peter Smetacek. I agree with you partially. Revealing information
> to researchers, policy makers and environmentalist is a good
> part. But also
> the same can be used by butterfly smugglers. As everybody is aware that
> government is not much concerned with saving little creatures. But
> researchers who have knowledge of a particular species which is
> commercially
> more valuable, must protect its habitat by hiding information about its
> location. A few years back, Shillong, Capital of Meghalaya was
> the illegal
> hub of butterfly and wild animal products. It was closed down after a
> few
> years of redtapism. And I believe it might have just moved to another
> location.Now, can I let the people know, exactly where to find
> Bhutan Glory,
> Peal's Palmfly, so that people can illegally profit from it ? No.
> Saturday at 2:25am
> - <http://www.facebook.com/Bittusahgal>
> Bittu Sahgal Which brings me back to a basic issue that concerns me
> Peter (how are you by the way?): We are not getting enough
> information and
> help from lepidopterists whose knowledge of flowering, climate,
> egg laying
> and emergence, absense-presence and man-made habitat changes
> could help us
> track the pace and measure of at least this one vital marker for climate
> change.
> Saturday at 3:51am
> - <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1642953000>
> Peter Smetacek
> Dear Kishen, thank you for this. Please do not make allowances for my
> age- your experience is as valid as mine! You will know that
> even living in
> an area, one does not see rare butterflies often. What chance do
> you think
> an ill-intentioned person has of coming across a rare butterfly, even
> if the exact location and flying time is known? I agree that conspicuous
> butterflies like the Bhutan Gloray and kaiser i Hind, for which
> there will
> always be a market, should be protected by a veil of silence:
> however, rare
> skippers, moths, blues and satyrs: there is very little market
> for these and
> an urgent need to know exactly where they occur. All too often, the only
> information we have about an insect is that it occurs in Assam, which at
> that time, included everything east of Alipurduar as far as Nagaland.
> So, I say, share knowledge-that is the only way to progress. That has
> been our mistake in the past, when a generation of scientists
> clung to their
> little secrets and a "dark age" descended upon us, for which
> there is very
> litle to show. Follow the Journal of the Bombay Natural History
> Society and
> you will see what I mean.
> Publications are important to Science. Remember that from the 10th
> century onwards in Europe, there were all sorts of charlatans
> roaming about
> and preying upon the innocent. After the Inquisition, there was
> very little
> knowledge left, since everyone who knew anything about nature was either
> burnt or kept very quiet for fear of being burnt alive. Then, the
> obvious
> next step was to start the process of learning about nature
> anew-this time
> with a basic rule that everything I find, that you can find under
> similar
> circumstances, is true, or "Science", and everything else is a
> mere "claim".
> Today, you will know that there are many claims being propounded by
> persons with ulterior motives. Publication in respected peer reviewed
> journals is the only way of dealing such charlatans out of the
> game. So it
> is true that publications are more important to scientists than
> butterflies.
> However, it is the job of the scientist to discover facts about nature;
> different facets of society then use this information according to their
> requirement. By publishing, the scientist has placed his discovery
> before
> society- it is up to the rest to follow things up. If the scientist gets
> involved with implementing protection programmes or things like that, it
> will detract from his/her ability to benefit society by the
> training he/he
> has received. etc.
> sorry for this, Kishen. YOu certainly know most of this, but I need to
> get it off my chest.....
> Saturday at 11:37am
> - <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1642953000>
> Peter Smetacek
> Dear Chandan,
> I have covered your points in the reply below to Kishen. You are
> correct. Nothing is "all the way". There are always shades of
> truth, things
> to say and things better left unsaid. We do not have many
> marketable species
> here in U...See More
> Saturday at 11:42am
> - <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1642953000>
> Peter Smetacek
> Dear Bittu, good to hear from you. All fine here. I would need to know
> who "we" refers to in your message, in order to hellp you better. In the
> meantime, here are some of my publications that deal with the things you
> mention:
> 1993. Catopsili...See More
> Saturday at 11:48am
> - <http://www.facebook.com/Bittusahgal>
> Bittu Sahgal We is anyone working on climate and biodiversity issues
> from the point of view of trying to influence policy decisions
> in favour of
> protecting ecosystems and species Peter. India is working furiously at
> converting natural India to cash and in the process pollinators such as
> butterflies and bees, river and lake cleaning organisms, elephants...
> everything is going down the tubes.
> Saturday at 11:53am
> - <http://www.facebook.com/Bittusahgal>
> Bittu Sahgal Thanks for the references. What would be terrific is for
> people who know the subject to draw the inferences in a way that
> would allow
> a policy maker from Bihar, Chattisgarh, or New Delhi to
> understand the issue
> and be guided by the advice. Write a piece for us in Sanctuary.
> Basically
> establishing the point that butterflies are the canaries in the coal
> mine
> for the Indian subcontinent.
> Saturday at 11:55am
> - <http://www.facebook.com/Bittusahgal>
> Bittu Sahgal And do send me those papers by email if that is easy
> Peter.
> Saturday at 11:56am
> - <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=592924824>
> Kishen Das
> ‎@ Peter sir, I was very specific about rare and beautiful
> butterflies. It was not a generic statement. I also said don't reveal
> the
> exact location. I took 3 days to decide how to post that suggestion !!!
> I
> think we both feel the same. To conclude I am far more comfortable
> sharing interesting rare findings of beautiful butterflies
> within a closed
> group and directly working with policy makers, than posting it in FB and
> getting 100s of "likes", probably also getting the attention
> ill-intentioned
> people. May be you should write about your efforts of saving the estate
> around you, to Sanctuary. If you know the inner-circles of scientific
> editors, you will already know that politics and personal
> opinions prevail
> over conservation and collaborations !!! This is more true when
> it comes to
> topics like global warming, climate change and geographical shifts of
> species, as they are directly associated with project fundig.
> Saturday at 12:18pm
>
--
Enjoy
