I seem to have inadvertently started off all the discussion of possible Goshawk disturbance by simply inquiring as to where Foster pond is! (I am not that familiar w the FL National Forest).
After Josh S. kindly answered me on this bird list with a message similar to messages many of us have seen here a lot, with directions to where Foster Pond is & the general area where he saw a N. Goshawk, Becky H. & I took a ride over to the forest and walked in that area. No Goshawk seen after lots of looking. but we had a nice wintry hike & saw a gorgeous sunset over Seneca Lake. Saw more domestic mammals traveling there, than birds! Sent from my iPhone Donna Scott On Jan 16, 2015, at 3:30 PM, Scott Haber <scotthab...@gmail.com> wrote: > John C., > > I'm still trying to figure out how we "know" Goshawks to be adverse to human > disturbance. Anecdotal evidence is nice, as is your research on Golden-winged > Warblers, but actual cited research on Northern Goshawks reports the > following: > > "Disturbances associated with research are usually of short duration, > apparently having little impact on nesting birds. Viewing nests for short > periods after young have hatched does not cause desertion. Trapping adults > during nesting for banding or attaching transmitters apparently does not > cause abandonment. The percentage of nesting pairs with radios that > successfully raised young (83%, n = 8, 1988–1989) was similar to those > without radios (82%, n = 10, 1987–1990; Austin 1993). Timbering activities > near nests can cause failure, especially during incubation (Anonymous 1989, > Boal and Mannan 1994). Logging activities, such as loading and skidding, > within 50–100 m of nest can cause abandonment, even with 20-d-old nestlings > present (JRS). However, see Zirrer (1947) for descriptions of repeated > renesting attempts despite extreme disturbance. > > My takeaway from that is that unless someone starts logging/timbering at > Foster Pond, I think Josh's goshawk will be fine, even if a few folks decide > to go take a look for it. This is not a situation comparable to something > like a roosting owl's location being posted, since there's no evidence at all > that the goshawk will even remain at this exact location any longer than the > single day on which Josh observed it. According to more research cited in the > BNA account, the earliest-ever recorded date of this species being paired up > and on territory is late February, and mid-March to early April is much more > common. > > Exercising caution for the sake of leaving rare or poorly-known birds > undisturbed is one thing, but I think it's also worth not immediately rushing > to chastise and scold new contributors for their sightings, without any > legitimate evidence that their reports will have any negative impact on said > birds. > > -Scott > > On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 2:54 PM, John Confer <con...@ithaca.edu> wrote: >> I'm just suggesting that an overdoes of caution for the sake of a >> species that is known to be adverse to human disturbance is worth >> considering. The evidence for goshawk nest abandonment that I know about >> is limited but real. I doubt that at this time of year that there would >> be any impact on reproductive success, but a visit in ~April-May might >> have an impact. >> >> 40 years ago Dorothy McIlroy described to me one goshawk nest that was >> abandoned while the birds were on eggs and 30 years ago John Snelling, a >> former grad student of Tom Cade, with a strong interest in raptors, also >> described such an instance. John Gregoire, below, added another >> instance(s). This doesn't approach the sample size for a publication. >> There is data for golden-wings that the number fledged per nest is lower >> for renests, but that comes from pooling nearly a dozen major studies of >> GWWA reproductive success, including a half-dozen PhDs, and is >> detectable only with a sample size of on the order of 500 nests. This >> won't happen for goshawk. So what we have is anecdotal. >> >> Since my information on goshawk is old and very personal and not >> generally known among the public, I wanted to make the gentle >> suggestion that for birds swuch as ravens and goshawk or similar birds >> with individual pairs that can be adversely affected by human presence >> that the location of (potential) territories and/or nests is probably >> not a good thing to share. It is interesting that within a species there >> may be pairs that are acclimated to human presence and pairs that don';t >> often contact humans and may "over-react' to human intrusion. This the >> consequence of visiting a nest or entering a territory is unpredictable. >> >> Cheers, >> >> John >> >> On 1/16/2015 2:17 PM, Anne Clark wrote: >> > Hopefully this is not taking this outside the interest of many on the list >> > but: >> > >> > I am curious to know the evidence on reduced nesting success in goshawks, >> > in part because it is really important to know what such evidence would >> > look like. John, can you direct those of us who might want to follow up >> > to publications, people, organizations? >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > Anne >> > >> > On Jan 16, 2015, at 2:07 PM, John and Sue Gregoire wrote: >> > >> >> Heartly concur John. Count me as a bander who has both noted this and had >> >> research >> >> muddled by such exact descriptions. >> >> john >> >> -- >> >> John and Sue Gregoire >> >> Field Ornithologists >> >> Kestrel Haven Avian Migration Observatory >> >> 5373 Fitzgerald Road >> >> Burdett,NY 14818-9626 >> >> N 42 26.611' W 76 45.492' >> >> Website: http://www.empacc.net/~kestrelhaven/ >> >> "Conserve and Create Habitat" >> >> >> >> On Thu, January 15, 2015 16:03, John Confer wrote: >> >>> HI Folks, >> >>> >> >>> The barn door is open or the cat is out of the bag, BUT I HAVE A >> >>> CONCERN ABOUT DESCRIBING LOCATIONS OF N GOSHAWK WHEN THEY ACT SOMEWHAT >> >>> AS IF THEY HAD A TERRITORY. Northern Goshawk are known among banders who >> >>> climb to hawk nests to frequently abandon a nest, especially early in >> >>> the nesting cycle, although not so much after the young have >> >>> hatched.Individual birds can become accustomed to human disturbance at a >> >>> low level and provide an exception. Other birds that rarely see humans >> >>> may well abandon a nest if disturbed. At this time of year, they >> >>> probably haven't started laying and, even if the bird is considering >> >>> nesting nearby, at this time of the year the bird might just move away. >> >>> However, if they did start to nest and someone visited the well >> >>> described site a couple months from now, the bird might abandon eggs. >> >>> >> >>> I know there is an excitement in seeing a good bird, and it is very >> >>> nice to share providing a very good motivation to share a siting with >> >>> others, e.g., the Schofield Short-eared Owls, which do not seem to be at >> >>> all disturbed by humans watching them in a car. Other species of birds >> >>> may have reduced nesting success if people visit them, and goshawk are >> >>> known to be so affected. Discretion in individual circumstances is >> >>> advised. >> >>> >> >>> Cheers, >> >>> >> >>> John >> >>> >> >>> On 1/15/2015 11:14 AM, Donna Scott wrote: >> >>>> Where is Foster Pond, please? >> >>>> >> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >> >>>> Donna Scott >> >>>> >> >>>> On Jan 14, 2015, at 6:19 PM, Joshua Snodgrass <cedarsh...@gmail.com >> >>>> <mailto:cedarsh...@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> I went birding at Foster Pond this afternoon, because high twenties >> >>>>> feels like spring compared to the last few days. Past the frozen pond >> >>>>> and down Backbone trail I ventured into the brushy field to get a >> >>>>> better look at some waxwings when I flushed a Northern Goshawk from >> >>>>> low cover. Life Bird! She (I'm guessing based on the size) perched in >> >>>>> a small tree and posed for a long time. Excellent views. Adult with a >> >>>>> bright eyestripe. I took pictures until my hands and toes went numb. >> >>>>> She never flew away. As I was returning to the trail two Common >> >>>>> Ravens flew over calling. Awesome Day! >> >>>>> Photos: >> >>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/123875591@N03/16096262487/in/photostream/ >> >>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/123875591@N03/15662257883/in/photostream/ >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Sorry I didn't post earlier, but I have a dumb phone. >> >>>>> Good birding! >> >>>>> Josh >> >>>>> -- >> >>>>> *Cayugabirds-L List Info:* >> >>>>> Welcome and Basics <http://www.northeastbirding.com/CayugabirdsWELCOME> >> >>>>> Rules and Information >> >>>>> <http://www.northeastbirding.com/CayugabirdsRULES> >> >>>>> Subscribe, Configuration and Leave >> >>>>> <http://www.northeastbirding.com/CayugabirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm> >> >>>>> *Archives:* >> >>>>> The Mail Archive >> >>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/cayugabirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html> >> >>>>> Surfbirds <http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/Cayugabirds> >> >>>>> BirdingOnThe.Net <http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/CAYU.html> >> >>>>> *Please submit your observations to eBird >> >>>>> <http://ebird.org/content/ebird/>!* >> >>>>> -- >> >>>> -- >> >>>> *Cayugabirds-L List Info:* >> >>>> Welcome and Basics <http://www.northeastbirding.com/CayugabirdsWELCOME> >> >>>> Rules and Information <http://www.northeastbirding.com/CayugabirdsRULES> >> >>>> Subscribe, Configuration and Leave >> >>>> <http://www.northeastbirding.com/CayugabirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm> >> >>>> *Archives:* >> >>>> The Mail Archive >> >>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/cayugabirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html> >> >>>> Surfbirds <http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/Cayugabirds> >> >>>> BirdingOnThe.Net <http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/CAYU.html> >> >>>> *Please submit your observations to eBird >> >>>> <http://ebird.org/content/ebird/>!* >> >>>> -- >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> >> >>> Cayugabirds-L List Info: >> >>> http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsWELCOME >> >>> http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsRULES >> >>> http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm >> >>> >> >>> ARCHIVES: >> >>> 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/cayugabirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html >> >>> 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/Cayugabirds >> >>> 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/CAYU.html >> >>> >> >>> Please submit your observations to eBird: >> >>> http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Cayugabirds-L List Info: >> >> http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsWELCOME >> >> http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsRULES >> >> http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm >> >> >> >> ARCHIVES: >> >> 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/cayugabirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html >> >> 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/Cayugabirds >> >> 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/CAYU.html >> >> >> >> Please submit your observations to eBird: >> >> http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> -- >> >> Cayugabirds-L List Info: >> http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsWELCOME >> http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsRULES >> http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm >> >> ARCHIVES: >> 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/cayugabirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html >> 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/Cayugabirds >> 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/CAYU.html >> >> Please submit your observations to eBird: >> http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ >> >> -- > > -- > Cayugabirds-L List Info: > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > Archives: > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > Please submit your observations to eBird! > -- -- Cayugabirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/cayugabirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/Cayugabirds 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/CAYU.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
