Also, @Rami: I couldn't find any input in: http://staging.creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/jo/legalcode ..? Also, why is the HQ suspending the approval of Jordan's work so far?
Thanks, M 2012/3/29 Moushira Elamrawy <[email protected]> > Thanks for your reply Dona, I really appreciate your elaborate reply, > however, sorry to tell that I again disagree with you :)) > > On 3/27/12, [email protected] <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Hi everybody > > thanks for the interesting discussion > > for the legal issues concerning CC Jordan, version 4.0 etc I`ll leave > > HQ answering. This is a global strategy, not a regional one, so I feel > > they would be right people to answer,so I `ll ask Diane our general > > counsel to jump into this discussion > > Not sure I understand how the separation works? I thought the regional > strategy is part of the global strategy by default. > > > > I can certainly answer from the regional point of view and the > > community activities in the Arab world. Moushira you`re quite new in > > the community but we have done lots of things, last but not least the > > first experiment of joint music content creation in Tunis, which we > > have just recorded. If you go back to the messages in this list you > > will see that we have done a 3 hours concert in Tunis, music workshops > > that have led to the production of these tracks.This is content > > creation, indeed. And CC does not produce content directly, of course, > > but we try to create the opportunity and the platform to do it. > > Then we have done a number of Salons, a regional project called CC > > Iftar twice, 3 regional meetings, a collective project called CC > > Evolution, art exhibitions, parties, community meetings in many Arab > > countries and we are planning now the first Salon in Algeria and > > Palestine and hopefully Morocco too. > > I think we have done lots of activities and we`ll continue doing, > > despite the very difficult times the region is living in. > > I am new to the list, but I have been following CC's progress in the > region, since I became engaged with Wikipedia, as a volunteer, in > 2007. The gatherings are very nice of course and a wonderful idea to > socialize and share ideas, we can't start without them, but what are > the strategies of these gatherings? What are the lesson learnt..and > how do we move to the-after-partying steps? > > > You have to remember that this is a volunteer based and run community > > so everything that comes out comes out from the time and generosity of > > people that are donating their time and skills. I think to this > > respect the Arabs have been doing amazing stuff in these past years > > I obviously mentioned my involvement with Wikipedia as a volunteer > myself, so I understand how that works, and my current consultation > with Wikimedia involves working with a much lager number of CC > volunteers, so I don't think I am missing that part. > > > As for legal adoption, I agree with you that this is important but > > there are limits to what we can do: first of all, being volunteer > > based, this process is also left to the generosity of our affiliate > > teams. We dont do legal lobbying directly, it is up to our affiliates > > to do legal work in their countries. And the IP situation is so > > different in the Arab world, where there are very creative countries > > with lots of content but completely not interested in enforcing IP , > > others with much more strict laws and interest in the topic. We cannot > > simply generalize. > > Again, talking about strategies. Because legal nodes have already > progressed in their contribution, as you just mentioned, so why did > things completely stop at some point? > > > Also, I dont think that it`s the lack of a local ported license that > > prevents people from using CC or writing for Wikipedia. Globally, the > > majority of CC community uses the unported cause it is the more > > convenient when you create content for global distribution..this is > > also the one that, in the Region, was used by Al Jazeera. They didnt > > wait for a CC Qatar license to be ported, they used the global. As > > much as the Wikipedia community does not have to wait for ported > > licenses to create content, the global license is valid and enforced, > > so nobody should be fearful to use it, it has a legal value indeed. > > Do I understand from that that the global CC strategy is to enforce > the global license, rather than the localized ones? If this helps the > cause of global sharing, then thats fine, but then why did the legal > teams volunteered their team on the localization work earlier? > > > Now if the two communities want to help each other I think they can > > cooperate in translation,for example: cause the global license is > > still in English and not in Arabic.There have been efforts to > > translate a global unported license in Arabic and our legal leads were > > working together to do this, but there are so many community based non > > legal translations to do! > > For example the human deeds..For example contributing for the regional > > website in Arabic which is so far existing but with very few > > contribution, and mostly coming only from CC Qatar > > http://www.ccarabworld.org/ar/ > > > > So if we want to coordinate these efforts within the two communities > > this would be great > > > > Also, maybe we should set a joint community meeting -on the web- where > > we invite the communities to make proposals and give their point of > > views cause there are many people who dont like to use the list for > > long discussions, they usually email for example on private basis.. > > do you think it would be a good idea to do a web seminar to discuss > > these issues with whoever in the communities is interested? > > As I mentioned earlier. Discussions and gatherings are so important, > but at the moment, I still have several un-answered question among > this thread, so we need to start on clear basis, in order to be more > efficient. As a regional coordinator Dona, I appreciate your helping > me figuring what are the problems, and what are the small steps that > can make a difference, without discussing general political or > cultural issues, please. > > Back to legal: Do we need the localized license at all, or shall we > just use the global one and stop the legal activities? If this is not > the case, then why did the work done in Egypt and Jordan hibernate, is > it an admin issue? > > There should be a strategy: Do we need legal lobbying or no? If no, > thats good news, however it means that the lawyers here have been > wasting their time. If the answer is yes, then how isCC as a > foundation supporting those efforts lead by volunteers? If the > foundation doesn't have to support those efforts, then can you at > least brief to me what are the deficiencies within the regional legal > status? Do we need more lawyers? Do we need more outreach? Are there > certain community building strategies? These are all un-answered > questions that I can't figure out myself. > > > Sorry about writing long.. > > Thanks, > M > > > I think Diane will also do the same for the 4.0 stuff, to explain > > people who are interested what is that. But I prefer to keep the two > > discussions separated > > > > Howeida, thanks for your input it would be wonderful to discuss more > > in depth how we could think about a strategy for content creation > > > > Best > > dona > > > > > > On Mar 24, 2:40 pm, Moushira Elamrawy <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Interesting info. > >> > >> I totally agree with Rami's input on the importance of legal lobbying. I > >> think this is is key and this is should be the first priority for CC > >> Arabia. > >> > >> I also hear Howaida on the issue of open content and the importance of > >> defining a strategy for content creation, however, I am not sure what > are > >> the tools that CC has for supporting or boosting content creation? > >> > >> Speaking of where I belong, I am a consultant to Wikimedia for Arabic > >> projects, and our focus is on community building in line with content > >> creation. We currently have some info about plans on our wikis, however > by > >> next week, solid exact projects will be shared soon. We have the tools > of > >> content creation and community building, since this normally how our > >> activities are designed, but the usual problem we face, is when we start > >> talking about open content and open license, and how "shareable" the > >> Wikipedia content is, because people wouldn't understand what that is. > >> Creative Commons isn't localized in many countries (it is translated, > but > >> I > >> think the only "localized" version is the Egyptian - Correct me is > >> mistaken). License localization is key. Supporting CC groups in their > >> outreach activities is key. > >> > >> As far as Wikipedia is involved, by default we do promote to CC which by > >> default helps create content, however, however, we need CC's support in > >> legal lobbying and structuring this lobbying across the region. Any > >> strategy how legal and tech teams can work together across the region? > >> What > >> are the countries that lack legal support, i.e. countries with > communities > >> of artists and IT, but lacks legal experts? > >> > >> I am open to any support that myself as an individual, or again as far > as > >> Wikimedia projects are concerned, can offer, so that we have a > significant > >> shift in the near future. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Moushira > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 10:26 AM, Rami Olwan <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> > Dear all, > >> > >> > I usually don't respond but I have to make things clear here for the > >> > record. CC Jordan was the first to adopt and port the CC project for > the > >> > Arab world. Ziad and I have been working on this project from its > early > >> > stage of international development. CC Jordan did the first launch of > >> > the > >> > project (not licenses) and the first CC saloon in the Arab world in > >> > November 2009. There was no other translation done in Arabic and we > had > >> > to > >> > translate every single word and read other licences specially those > >> > similar > >> > to our civil law jurisdiction in Jordan (French and Spanish licences). > >> > All > >> > 5 Jordanian CC licenses (version 3) were finalised since August 2010 > >> > before other jurisdictions and you can view a sample licence here > >> >http://staging.creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/jo/legalcode. I > can > >> > explain the legal changes that we had to make to the first generation > of > >> > CC > >> > licences (released internationally in December 2002 and based > primarily > >> > on > >> > Anglo- American legal system different from our legal system). > >> > >> > What remains for the work to be regarded as complete is an approval > from > >> > CC HQ and publishing the licences live on their server website > >> > (currently > >> > it sits temporary on their staging site). We have been waiting for > this > >> > to > >> > happen for years, but unfortunately it didn't take place. The reason > >> > that > >> > was given to us for not approving the finalised Jordanian CC licences > is > >> > because the MOU (now called affiliation) which we signed in 2003 with > CC > >> > international is no longer valid as it ceased to operate, and > therefore > >> > there is presently no official CC Jordan to launch the Jordanian > >> > licences. > >> > You can visit the CC international page here > >> >http://wiki.creativecommons.org/CC_Affiliate_Networkand find that > Jordan > >> > is currently not one of the CC countries. > >> > **** ** > >> > I don't think we can advance the development of the CC project in the > >> > Arab > >> > world without having the legal platform in place. The experience of > >> > other > >> > very successful CC jurisdictions such as CC Brazil and CC Australia > >> > tells > >> > us that without having the legal infrastructure (proper copyright > >> > system, > >> > CC licences and CC legal experts) in place any CC project could not > >> > develop > >> > as it should be. We have also to make sure that we understand the > >> > cultural > >> > differences that exist between the CC jurisdictions that can of course > >> > have > >> > an implication on the adoption of the CC project by our community and > >> > the > >> > public at large. We have seen only in the last few years an increase > in > >> > the > >> > number of enthusiastic people who want to support CC in the region > (many > >> > of > >> > them have an IT and internet background). I can explain the many > >> > problems > >> > that we encountered specially in Jordan when we started the project > and > >> > the > >> > porting process. > >> > ** ** > >> > I am aware that CC is working on version 4 for some time now and there > >> > is > >> > a lot of discussion and critique taking place on this particular > >> > initiative. We need to consider it carefully in the Arab world, but > >> > before > >> > doing so we need to finalise the work that we have started on version > 3. > >> > I > >> > think it is critically important to make sure that we have the > necessary > >> > legal tools that allow people to share legally and effectively in Arab > >> > countries. This would empower local creators (e.g amateurs, artists > and > >> > researchers) and increase the pool of creative work that public can > use > >> > for > >> > their benefit. It would also help in popularising Arabic content and > >> > share > >> > it with like developing countries and the rest of the world. > >> > ** ** > >> > I hope I have given a good overview of the development of the project. > >> > If > >> > anyone wants to know more about the history when CC started its > porting > >> > project not only in Jordan but internationally, I am happy to provide > >> > full > >> > background with dates and support. > >> > >> > Regards, > >> > >> > Rami Olwan > >> > Postdoctoral Research Fellow, QUT Faculty of Law > >> > PhD (QUT), LLM (Columbia Univ, NY, US) > >> > Phone: +61 731389591 > >> > Fax: +61 731389395 > >> > Mobile: +61 413743395 > >> > Website:http://www.olwan.org > >> > Address: Level 1, 126 Margaret Street > >> > Brisbane QLD 4000 > >> > Australia > >> > >> > *From:* Moushira Elamrawy <[email protected]> > >> > >> > *To:* donna d.r. <[email protected]> > >> > *Cc:* [email protected] > >> > *Sent:* Saturday, 24 March 2012 6:33 AM > >> > >> > *Subject:* Re: [cc-arab-world] How is CC doing, legal wise? > >> > >> > Hi Dona, > >> > >> > Thanks a lot for your reply. I am not sure I agree with all the > points, > >> > specifically the content creation one. CC isn't responsible for > >> > boosting > >> > content creation as much as it is responsible for content creation as > >> > much > >> > as it is responsible for promoting the license in an effective way > >> > that guarantees as much available content is possible is under CC > >> > license. > >> > >> > Every region and language has its specific cultural issues that can > slow > >> > down things or direct them to a certain way. If are discussing how > >> > law-abidance and cultural issues in "general" are the main problem for > >> > CC > >> > operations. Then probably we shouldn't consider CC Arabic activities > at > >> > all. > >> > >> > My two cents is that we focus on little specific things that can make > a > >> > difference on the short term. Community creation is key to any > >> > activity, > >> > specially volunteer one, so if you can tell is what is CC's strategy > >> > towards community creation in our specific region, then maybe we can > >> > help. > >> > Or if there is a strategy in general for Arab world, in any direction, > >> > whether community or content creation or lobbying, etc, then maybe > >> > interested people can help. > >> > >> > Thanks a lot, > >> > M > >> > >> > 2012/3/23 donna d.r. <[email protected]> > >> > >> > Hi Moushira > >> > first of all sorry for posting this message only now, actually I `ve > >> > realized only now that it has been pending for some days! > >> > >> > Very quickly (then I`ll leave others answering to you and giving their > >> > opinions): Jordan had done an advanced work indeed, but for different > >> > reasons didnt get finalized into the proper ported license > >> > >> > Egypt is very close to achieve this, but the team is waiting for final > >> > comments from HQ on the legal side > >> > >> > The other official affiliates are not focusing on porting work, you > >> > should > >> > know that CC has put the porting work on hold and privileged community > >> > building work. HQ is currently working on 4.0 so for now no more > porting > >> > happening (not only in the Arab world: anywhere) > >> > >> > We can discuss what we need to be done to get the legal work improved > in > >> > the Arab world and what`s the reason for it being behind other regions > >> > (whether a financial or poltiical or cultural reason if any) ..but my > >> > feeling is that the Arab world needs to create content before starting > >> > licensing it..and, considering all the political and human rights > issues > >> > we > >> > are facing now in many places in the region I guess that abiding by > the > >> > copyright law is the least problem whereas the major problem is still > >> > abiding by the law in general > >> > >> > Anyway, every country has a different situation as you know better > than > >> > me. I feel it would be good for us to work together on improving the > >> > legal > >> > work but, if we can, even more useful would be to work together > towards > >> > encouraging content creation, peer-productions and collaborative work > >> > >> > my two cents:) > >> > I`ll leave the others respond > >> > best > >> > dona > >> > >> > On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Moushira Elamrawy < > >> > [email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> > Hi All: > >> > >> > Happy Spring! Am not sure if this have been discussed before, but I > have > >> > been tracking the archived messages trying to figure out how far have > CC > >> > reached when it comes to legal recognition. It looks like Jordan has > >> > done > >> > an advanced work, however, I can't figure out from the messages, if it > >> > is > >> > indeed a license that is legally recognized and has laws of violation > or > >> > not yet. > >> > >> > On the other hand, I couldn't tell how does CC stand in the rest of > the > >> > active nodes: Tunisia, Lebanon, Qatar, UAE.*.(Well, I kind of know the > >> > situation in Egypt. Will meet with Hala tomorrow to discuss this into > >> > details)*, do CC groups support lobbying in their areas of action? Is > >> > the > >> > CC foundation doing any help in this regard? Do we need a > >> > >> ... > >> > >> read more » > > > > -- > > لقد تلقيت هذه الرسالة لأنك مشترك في المجموعة "CC Arab World المشاع > الإبداعي" > > من مجموعات Google. > > للنشر في هذه المجموعة، أرسل بريدًا إلكترونيًا إلى > > [email protected] > > لإلغاء اشتراكك في هذه المجموعة، أرسل رسالة إلكترونية إلى > > [email protected]. > > للحصول على مزيد من الخيارات، يمكنك الانتقال إلى هذه المجموعة على العنوان > > http://groups.google.com/group/cc-arab-world?hl=ar. > > > > > -- لقد تلقيت هذه الرسالة لأنك مشترك في المجموعة "CC Arab World المشاع الإبداعي" من مجموعات Google. للنشر في هذه المجموعة، أرسل بريدًا إلكترونيًا إلى [email protected] لإلغاء اشتراكك في هذه المجموعة، أرسل رسالة إلكترونية إلى [email protected]. للحصول على مزيد من الخيارات، يمكنك الانتقال إلى هذه المجموعة على العنوان http://groups.google.com/group/cc-arab-world?hl=ar.
