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Phil - Yes, I'm one of those who's been fighting this battle for as long as I can remember! Though actually I have to disagree with you that it's the practice of setting the contour level as a multiple of 'sigma' (actually the RMSD from the mean as you say) that's idiotic. There's nothing wrong with that (and indeed it's normal statistical practice), as long as the value of sigma stored in the map header IS correct (that really goes without saying!). The RMSD as an estimate of the uncertainty (at least for wFo-DFc maps anyway) is only valid provided it's calculated using exactly an integral number of a.u.'s (e.g. 1 a.u. or half a cell if there's at least one 2-fold, or a whole cell, i.e. N a.u.'s where N MUST BE an integer). What's really idiotic is recalculating 'sigma' when N is NOT an integer, which is of course usually the case when you're cutting out a piece of map or extending it to cover the contents of a PDB file. The uncertainty of the density values doesn't change simply because you decide to look at a small piece of it, rather it's an inherent property of the map. Some time ago I updated your excellent 'extend' (but for some reason obsoleted) program (now called 'extends') to fix this problem (mainly as I recall because Kevin C. didn't think it was feasible to fix mapmask), i.e. it simply copies the RMSD from the input map to the output one instead of recalculating it every time. Additionally, it rejects outliers in wFo-Fc maps (i.e. 'signal' as opposed to 'noise) from the uncertainty calculation, since the uncertainty should not include these. Here at Astex, to save disk space we store 'mini-maps' just enclosing the binding site(s) of our protein-ligand complexes, and if you try recalculating sigma for these based on just the volume of the cut-out map, not surprisingly you get really idiotic values! Sadly and rather frustratingly, extends has languished in the 'unsupported' area, so of course hardly anyone ever uses it, and a problem which should have been fixed long ago is perpetuated. Cheers -- Ian > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 10:46 PM > To: ccp4bb@dl.ac.uk > Subject: Re: [ccp4bb]: maprot changing contour level? > > *** For details on how to be removed from this list visit the *** > *** CCP4 home page http://www.ccp4.ac.uk *** > > > > This a side effect of the idiocy of setting a contour level > as a multiple > of the so-called "sigma" level (a battle that some of us have fought & > lost for many years). This is actually the RMS deviation over > the volume > of the map box, so if this includes a larger volume of solvent the RMS > value will be smaller, ie it is a funciton of the box size!. Maps from > refinement programs (when there is a model) are on an > absolute scale in > e/A^3 and it makes sense to set contour levels in these > units, which are > independent of the box size. > > Phil > > > > > Hi, > > I'm attempting to use maprot to rotate a map (in order to > get the map > > covering one molecule in alignment w\ another), and noticed > that it seems > > to change the contour level of the output map (the new map > contoured at 2 > > sigma seems to be equivalent to the original at 1 sigma). > > > > Based on the example for density cutting, I'm using > (cut&paste from csh > > script): > > > > maprot wrkin ${inmap} cutout ${outmap} <<eof > > mode to > > cell xtal ${cell} > > grid xtal 100 160 120 > > symmetry ${symnum} > > average > > rotate polar 180.0 0.0 180.0 > > translate 0 0 70.0273 > > eof > > > > The same effect shows up with the identity transformation > (rotate polar 0 > > 0 0 ; translate 0 0 0 ). My best guess is that it's doing > some type of > > averaging (although removing the average keyword results in > error message > > "maprot: rcards - wrong number of operaters entered"). > > > > Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I'm doing wrong, or > > alternative ways of doing this (other than just looking at > the transformed > > map contoured at 2 sigma)? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Pete > > > > > > Pete Meyer > > Fu Lab > > BMCB grad student > > Cornell University > > > > > > > > Disclaimer This communication is confidential and may contain privileged information intended solely for the named addressee(s). It may not be used or disclosed except for the purpose for which it has been sent. If you are not the intended recipient you must not review, use, disclose, copy, distribute or take any action in reliance upon it. 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