We have had this conversation, and I still think you are full of it. > -----Original Message----- > From: Gary P. McNeel, Jr. [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 8:37 AM > To: CF-Community > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > That is not true at all Beth. These offenses go on all the time in > countries > we support(ed). Right wing dictatorships all over Central and South > American, Africa and Indonesia to name a few. Thousands of people have > died > in Chiapas. We are not kicking Mexico's ass are we? Don't try to make this > into some moral battle, let the government do that (and the media). This > is > not about that at all. There are greater interests here than a War on > Terror. > > -Gary > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Fleischer, Beth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 11:16 AM > > To: CF-Community > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > Actually, if I had my druthers the US would have removed the taliban > from > > power long ago - we did in other countries where these types of offenses > > were taking place, but not in afghanistan. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Will Swain [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 12:32 AM > > > To: CF-Community > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > I think whats interesting is how the media began to demonise the > Taliban > > > after sept 11. Granted, they don't need much deionisation, but > > what I find > > > interesting is that the governments of the west have been totally > > > uninterested in the Taliban's human rights offences for years. > > > > > > This is pure media manipulation. You don't have to lie to manipulate > > > people, > > > you just decide when and how you tell them the truth, and which > > truth you > > > tell them. Lots of publicity about how outrageously the Taliban treat > > > women, > > > how viciously they treat their own people, and as if by magic, > everyone > > > thinks what a good and just idea it is to step into their country and > > > overthrow their government. To say it makes no difference how the > facts > > > are > > > delivered is a innocent view at best. Of course it matters. The media > > > decide > > > when and what news to tell us. The have an editorial bias that begins > > > before > > > the first word is written. > > > > > > An interesting twist on this is the Northern Alliance's treatment of > > > foreign > > > Taliban prisoners of war. Last I heard there were international > > laws that > > > govern the treatment of prisoners of war. Executing them is not > allowed. > > > Breach of human rights anyone. I just hope this doesn't come > > back and bite > > > the coalition on the arse, when news of the Northern Alliance's > hideous > > > human rights offences starts appearing in a few years time. > > > > > > will > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: 05 December 2001 05:17 > > > To: CF-Community > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > I don't want to misstate what you're saying, but let me boil > > down for you > > > what I hear you saying: > > > > > > 1) The news may be factually correct, though the nuance may be > > off because > > > of entertainment values -- therefore, the "real" news is some how > > > obscured. > > > > > > 2) Because the "news" has been remanufactured to a degree, and no > longer > > > reflects the raw, unvarnished truth, it is offensive to base any > > > conclusions > > > this "newstainment." > > > > > > Am I understanding you correctly? > > > > > > Therefore, we should not condemn the Taliban for beating, stoning and > > > murdering women because, by golly, we learned about it on a network > news > > > show. And it was edited. And who knows what was left out. A > > Taliban denial > > > maybe? Or possibly a Taliban apology ("We didn't mean to stone > > those women > > > to death -- the rock just slipped. Sorry.") > > > > > > Is that really what you're saying. I mean, because that's what > > I hear you > > > saying. And I find it pretty offensive. > > > > > > If the facts are correct, it matters little how they are > > delivered. And no > > > amount of political correctness (in this case, the liberal mantra of > we > > > shouldn't criticize other "cultures") can possibly justify what the > > > Taliban > > > has done to women and dissenters within Afghanistan. > > > > > > H. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Benjamin Falloon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 9:18 PM > > > To: CF-Community > > > Subject: Re: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > Beth, > > > > > > I'm not certain how you arrived at such an exaggerated > > understanding of my > > > original post. But allow me at least the oppertunity to expand my > > > perspetive > > > before you sarcastically attack my posts once more, even though the > > > original > > > post was not even address to you. > > > > > > I may have refered to television (and this can be broadened to any > > > corporately own/operated news service) as manufactured, but I did not > in > > > any > > > way insinuate that the 'stories' were myth. News services > > (mostly) deliver > > > their content in a highly constructed way. News is like coka > > cola; coke is > > > based on sugar, a 'real world' ingredient, just as the "oppression of > > > afghanistan women" may too be 'real world', but the end result > delivered > > > by > > > the news services is nothing 'natural'... it is a manufacured > construct > > > intentionally mixed to produce the desired effect. This is how I view > > > corporate news services. Most of what is aired looks no different > from, > > > and > > > indeed reflects the kind of news approach highlighted by the > > nineties film > > > "Wag the Dog". > > > > > > Images are carefully selected, edited and cut with emotive music and > > > commentry designed to promote a certain perspective. Exactly whose > > > perspective/interests/politics represented are beyond the reach of > this > > > discussion, but the net effect of these kinds of presentations > > are not at > > > all dissimilar to those effects achieved by the entertainment > > industry as > > > a > > > whole. > > > > > > News is entertainment/entertainment is news. I find making > > judgements upon > > > other peoples/cultures etc based on this kind of information > offensive. > > > > > > I recall a previous post by Gary that brought up the lack on true > > > investigative reporting in the main stream news. My oppinion on the > news > > > is > > > an extension of this logic. > > > > > > Benjamin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Fleischer, Beth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 12:12 PM > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > Folks!! > > > > > > > > did you hear it! The oppression of afghanistan women is a > > myth, made up > > > by > > > > the media. > > > > > > > > Benjamin, I heard about the plight of afghani women several years > ago > > > when > > > > an afghan woman came to speak at a university. Did she make > > it up too? > > > was > > > > she in on the big media conspiracy? Were the stories she > > told of women > > > > being killed for walking down the street with a man whom they > weren't > > > > married to made up too? Were the stories of female lawyers and > doctors > > > made > > > > up too? And she left afghanistan not because she was no longer > > > allowed > > > to > > > > practice law there, but just to spread these lies about the > wonderful > > > > taliban rule? All those underground schools to teach girls > > dont' exist > > > > right - because under the taliban rule girls WERE allowed to go to > > > school? > > > > And all this information I received prior to 9/11 - it was made up > for > > > WHAT > > > > REASON? > > > > > > > > so, all the people in afghanistan listening to music again, shaving > > > their > > > > beards, taking off their masks, they weren't really oppressed > > its just a > > > > media invention, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The western media is at best, extrodinatily limited in it's > > > representation > > > > > of 'real people' in the middle east (or media east as it's > > exists for > > > us). > > > > > Furthermore, it's representation is more often designed to promote > > > this > > > > > kind > > > > > of discussion by manufacture of 'stories' (one of these being the > > > > > celebrating Palistinians, another being the oppression of women in > > > > > Aphganistan for example). These stories are the developed and made > > > self > > > > > referencial, repeated over and over by all media outlets until > they > > > become > > > > > the measure of oppinion polls on presidencial popularity. There > > > simplify > > > > > polarize and synthasize politics and culture for the fast > > food culture > > > > > that > > > > > is America. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Michael Dinowitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 9:18 AM > > > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. There were a LOT more than 1 woman and 5 kids. There were PA > > > police > > > > > > taking camera's away from reporters to avoid the news > > from it. There > > > > > were > > > > > > letters of protest from the AP and Reuters over it. I know > people > > > who > > > > > live > > > > > > in Israel and have first hand reports as do many others. > > > > > > 2. The rumor that it was old footage was debunked. It > > started with a > > > > > > student in Argentina and spread. It was real footage. > > > > > > 3. I don't condemn any Palestinian for the actions of some truly > > > sick > > > > > > people who take pride and happiness in the suffering of others. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >As or your second quesion... > > > > > > >First, that clip of a women dancing and five kids > > > > > > >clapping there hands, I wouldnt realy know how that is > > > > > > >considred 'my people', last time i checked, the > > > > > > >Palestinian population was not reprented by a women > > > > > > >and 5 kids, and yes, a car passing by blowings its > > > > > > >horn...Second, CNN, which first aired the clip, was > > > > > > >and still is accused of airing an old clip which was > > > > > > >taking during the Iraq war, except , sadly, no media > > > > > > >outlet would ever let the story run, nor deny or > > > > > > >confirm the reports.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Now i dont know if that is right or wrong, I do > > > > > > >believe that YES, its very possible that there does > > > > > > >exist a palestinian women who danced in the streets, > > > > > > >and its so re-assuring that a camera somehow found her > > > > > > >dancing and aired her image, two hours after the > > > > > > >incident.....I would think there would be more > > > > > > >pressing issues at that time,but i guess a Palestinian > > > > > > >women supposedly dancing in the streets of > > > > > > >Palestine,is more important than the those tens and > > > > > > >thousands of casualties and the chaos that was > > > > > > >happening here.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I guess the Palestinians where just about to get there > > > > > > >independence and your blessings, and this women came > > > > > > >and screwed everything up for us!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > >BTW, the women was kinda a heavy set, so i wouldnt > > > > > > >realy call it "Jumping up for Joy", the poor old lady > > > > > > >could barely walk, but she was eating sweets, which > > > > > > >does probably translate to her as jumping up for > > > > > > >joy!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. 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