>> Your argument sounds stupid. :) > That's because you either refuse, or are incapable > of, understanding it, apparently. Because your > comments that follow don't address any aspect of > my argument.
I'm not going to get into 3rd grade debate tactics with you. >> You're still saying "I'm in the 'in' crowd, so you're >> wrong/stupid". >> That's a logical non-sequitur for starters. > And here's the evidence. I can't even begin to figure out > where you are getting this idea from..... Okay... then what's your objective proof that killing is evil in all circumstances? It must not be anecdotal evidence, and it must not be based on the opinions of others, no matter how many billions of others that includes, and it must be something on which all people can universally agree. You said: > Killing another human being for a reason other than > self defense IS wrong, universally and objectively. > Claiming otherwise is cultural relativism...a position > who's ludicracy has been made evident time and again. So where is your universal and objective proof? I assume it was written by someone? Maybe other men? Maybe people who make moral judgements? Maybe people who've made moral judgements with which you agree? And they've proven this "time and again" have they? And they've done this by what means? And they've agreed on those judgements perhaps? hmmmmmm.... I think I see a pattern here... >> On the subject of killing in particular, it's not black >> and white. You say "it's allways wrong to kill except >> in self defense", but killing isn't always black and >> white and self-defense isn't always black and white. >> There's assasination for starters -- the question of >> whether or not you would have killed Hitler if you had >> the opportunity and knew before hand is a classic >> example. Lots of folks believe abortion is murder, >> but if you read Freakonomics, you know that even >> if there were an absolute truth to the idea that >> abortion is murder, the subject would still not be >> black and white because of what we know to be the >> societal repercussions of a ban on abortion in the past. > I agree there are some very contentious issues in which > the morality is most certainly NOT clear. Your examples > point to that. But Isaac, aren't there also situations > where the morality IS very clear? I believe so, however, others disagree with my beliefs, therefore my belief is a moral judgement. I also tend to belay moral judgement to specific circumstances. I don't personally like to apply morality with a broad brush, such as saying that killing is always evil (even with the caveat that it's okay in self defense). If a person is killed, I have to know the circumstances to determine what I believe about the virtues of the act. Once I am reasonably informed about the circumstances I may come to the conclusion (although in most cases probably will not) that the act of killing said person was not evil. Which is actually unusual for me because I tend to be very "intuitive" (ENFP) with regard to non-moral judgements... with moral judgements I tend to be more "sensing", go figure. Lets use a different example. Human sacrifice, and I'm betting that most people would agree with you that it's fundamentally evil. (I'm guessing that would be your position, given what you've said thus far.) In the previous cultures which have accepted human sacrifice as part of their religious acts, being chosen to be sacrificed has been considered an honor, and the people who died would disagree with you that it's an evil act. Since I'm also willing to allow a person to commit suicide without considering it fundamentally evil, I am also willing to consider human sacrifice in those cultures to be not fundamentally evil. By contrast I consider the decimation of cultures (or cultural belief systems) to be fundamentally evil because it has the effect on culture that mass extinction has on biological diversity (see massacre of Indians on this continent in previous centuries and its effect on the proliferation or even the preservation of those cultures). Historically many cultures which included human sacrifice in their religious lives have been culturally if not physically subverted or decimated in a very 1984-ish way by cultures which believed human sacrifice to be fundamentally evil. I believe this to have been a fundamental evil which has harmed us as a whole. Most people disagree with that belief, but that's my moral judgement. So my moral judgement in this case is the literal oposite of the vast majority of our culture, both with regard to the good/evil-ness of human sacrifice and with regard to the good/evil-ness of subverting or decimating cultures which include it. These things are simply not reconcilable. I will believe what I believe, others will believe what they believe. And there is no way to prove that either of us are correct. >> I'm not saying that whatever a culture wants to do is >> fine. When I believe that my culture is doing a bad >> thing I speak out and attempt to encourage the culture >> to change. What I'm saying is that the fact that lots >> of people agree with you doesn't make you right. You're >> actually using the same culturally-relative argument that >> you're then lambasting others for using. Except I'm not >> using that argument -- I'm telling you it's wrong. > Then you are not a cultural relativist, and I'm not sure > what you are rambling on about.....other than refuting > this phantom "in-crowd" argument. You assumed I was a cultural relativist. Not sure exactly what that assumption was based on... In any event, the whole thing got started over the argument that "morality" is objective (and apparently some confusion about definitions of words). I was merely pointing out that, since there is no way to prove in an objective manner that one person's moral judgement is correct instead of another person's, and that there are literally no moral subjects on which people universally agree, that morality must be subjective. s. isaac dealey 434.293.6201 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:200132 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/5 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:5 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.5 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
