On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 5:14 PM, denstar <[email protected]> wrote: > Um, belief in God is irrational? > > Do you know what "rational" means? Er, How about "logic"? > > You telling me there's no rational/logical place for God? Nowhere for > a power "higher" than ourselves to be, in your philosophy?
Yup. As far as I'm aware (and I am by no means an expert in such matters) there is not only no way to show the existence of an omnipotent creator through evidentiary means, but any such logical attempt necessitates the postulation of such a being as an axiom. And please do remember that the original context for the remark was MaryJo's surprise about Dawkins going off on a belief in God as being irrational. Given that he is a scientist, I stated that in the context of a discussion with a scientist, a belief in God was really probably irrational. I'd generally say "arational" but people don't usually understand the distinction I make between arational and irrational. I'm pedantic that way. > "Science" is just a tool for Logic, my friend. Thus logic "trumps" > science. Science is nothing without context. How could science be devoid of context? I have a hard time doing math devoid of context. Humans don't do things without context. > What about the Gödel's incompleteness theorems? Plato's Third Man > Argument? ... What about, "the box"? Gödel's incompleteness theorem is interesting. And a bit headache inducing. But it is really taken out of context by most people as it deals with formal language which is quite different from normal language or even philosophical language. If we were discussing number theory, I'd agree that it applies. As a generalized limitation to knowledge and provability, I think that it is widely misconstrued. However, I by no means have a deep understanding of it so I could very easily be wrong about its wider implications. I do not know of Plato's Third Man Argument off the top of my head, so I'll have to look it up. I'd be happy to read anything you send my way. Boxes are fun to play in. My cat likes them. So does my daughter. They are not a limitation, they are a play thing to be enjoyed and toyed with until destroyed and recycled. Interestingly enough, that is how science normally deals with boxes. > Philosophy just *destroys* Science. Only because they don't have real jobs :P > You ever read "The Silkie" by Van Vogt? The idea of "logic levels" > was pretty fun. Not familiar with it. > Some people don't understand that science is just thought-- they use > Science like Bad Religion-- supplanting Logic with it. Speaking of > bad religion: > > and the world wont wait > for the truth upon a plate > but were ready now to feast on an atheist peace. Bad Religion is fun. But I will refer you to Messrs John and John: Science is real >From the Big Bang to DNA Science is real >From evolution to the Milky Way I like the stories About angels, unicorns and elves Now I like those stories As much as anybody else But when I'm seeking knowledge Either simple or abstract The facts are with science The facts are with science Science is real Science is real Science is real Science is real >From anatomy to geology Science is real >From astrophysics to biology A scientific theory Isn't just a hunch or guess It's more like a question That's been put through a lot of tests And when a theory emerges Consistent with the facts The proof is with science The truth is with science Science is real Science is real Science is real Science is real > No person is consistently rational or irrational? Um, Seriously? Never known one to be. I'm not consistently rational and I'm the most rational person I've ever met as far as I can recall. But then again, I've been high a lot. > You seem to suffer from the "God hates Science" syndrome, Jay-dizzle. > The "battle" between science and religion (or spirituality). :)p Science doesn't, by and large, give a shit about religion. It's like your "battle" with that freaky ex-girlfriend. We're just not that into you, ok? Please, go away. And stop calling or we'll have to get a restraining order because no matter how much you claimed you've changed, we've moved on. Please do so yourself. K'thanx. > Newton was a great thinker, neh? He didn't act like a couple parents > fighting and trying to make their kid choose a favorite. Lots of > Great Thinkers don't have this cognitive dissonance going on about, at > the heart, Logic. (or reason, if you like.) Some see "the face of > god" everywhere they look, and it jives perfectly well with what they > see. Yes and most of Newton's work in the religious area was involved in Alchemy. Brilliant outcome for that, no? > Science puts *itself* in the box, and is /damn happy to be there/. > That's the whole point of Science. It's like a box. (a lock-box, if > you will-- /gore + j/k) > > Have you heard the term "think outside the box"? Do you really grok > what it means? > > Science is just like, this little piece of the whole logic puzzle, ya > know? It's like this, frankly: do you ever think we'll run out of > questions? Science doesn't have a box. That is the brilliant thing about it. Figure out what works. Tell others. Try, fail, wipe yourself off, get up again and go. Wash, rinse, repeat. I admit, people within the scientific realm get complacent, they get hubris, they grow weary of the joy of being wrong all the time. But science reinvents itself, it stages revolutions, it upends the norms and figures out a better way of doing things. Time and again. Surprisingly rapidly. Does Religion? Philosophy? Government? We won't run out questions. Is science the only way of answering every single one of them? Of course not. Has it shown itself to be better than every other system so far? Yeah, I'd say so. No one true system. But it has an admirable t ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/message.cfm/messageid:308452 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.5
