Lewis, > I just re-read 28. In English of course. My Greek is insufficient for the job. Neither is mine. I read it in the original Hebrew or in an English translation. In this case, I'm using The Living Nach (Early Prophets), translation by Rabbi Yaakov Elman, Moznaim Publishing Corporation, New York/Jerusalem, 1994. I will be providing the translation where it's applicable.
> I would need to spend a couple hours doing more research, but from a > straight read.... I might very well argue that the Witch of Endor's :) > familiar was possessed by a demon, hence why she seeks to commune through > it. There is no mention in the text of a familiar. How do we know she had a familiar? You've got to stick with what's in the text. >More to that point, the way it is worded does not for me sufficiently > indicate that Samuel was raised from the dead in the flesh, even from a > temporary standpoint. No -- she raised his spirit, not his flesh. It says, 28:12: Then the woman saw Samuel and shrieked. She demanded of Saul, "Why have you misled me -- you are Saul!" 13: So the king said to her, "Have no fear. What did you see?" The woman said to Saul, "I see an angel rising from the earth." 14: He said to her, "What does he look like?" She said, "An old man is rising, wearing a cloak." Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he paid homage and prostrated himself. 15: Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me and brought me up?" Saul said, "I am in dire straits, and the Philistines are making war against me. God has turned away from me, and does not answer me any more -- not by the prophets or by dreams, and I am asking you to tell me what to do!" 16 - 19: Samuel said, "Why ask me, when God has turned away from you and become your adversary? God has done to David as He promised through me. God has torn the kingship away from you and given it to your comrade, David, since you did not obey God's command, and you did not execute His wrath upon the Amalekites. That is why God has done this to you today. God will also deliver Israel into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. God will also deliver the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines." 20: Saul flung himself on the ground, full-length, terrified by Samuel's words. He had no strength left, for he had not eaten any food all day and all night. ------------------- End of excerpt The words Samuel's apparition uses are very personal. The incident he refers to, with his prophecy to Saul that the kingship would go to David, was not public. It happened in private between Saul and Samuel. The whole tone of this incident, the wording, the way it happens, makes me think that it must be Samuel's voice from beyond the grave, or God speaking to Saul through the guise of Samuel. (Yes, I've stopped doing G-d, Michael was right, it's just a habit from my paper writing.) The way she talks at one point it as if she is > describing Samuel to Saul and he recognizing him by the "words", not by any > manifestation of flesh. That is, it gives the appearance that the > necromancer is what we call today "channeling" Samuel (through her familiar). No -- there is no reference there to a familiar. She only describes him at first, but then Saul speaks to him directly. > >2. The ghost of Samuel gives Saul several prophecies, which includes > >telling Saul that the battle with the Phillistines will be lost and that > >he and his son Jonathan will die tomorrow. And these prophecies come true. > >How could this be a demon, then? > > Why not? They are supposedly the fallen of a race superior to Man (though > not in potential) and as many would claim, at least originally, responsible > for the general administration of the World itself. That they would know > many, many things that are unknown to Men I have no doubt. I would assume > being a "spirit" does also offer one a... unique point of view as to the > events that are to unfold. Yes, if I as a Jew believed in the concept of Fallen Angels. But I don't. Not the Christian concept, at any rate. We don't believe in Satan (or Angels, for that matter) acting independently or against God and therefore, anything that Saul saw here would have to come from God. So I think what we've got here is two divergent views of a Biblical passage simply because our different religions have different ideas of what demons are, of what the Satan is, of what Angels are. > > As for prophesizing the events only a day a way, in this particular case > that would be no great feat, I should think. > > There is what is called "self-fulfilling prophecy" (if you believe > whole-heartedly that is thing is going to happen, you'll tend to make it > happen in just that way, albeit subconsciously) ... if this were a demon, > then, simply by speaking a few words, he here smashes Israel. The gain is > fairly clear. If you believe that Israel's fate hinged on Saul alone. While it's true that a leader's resolve may affect the outcome of a battle, it doesn't alone determine the outcome. But the point isn't a battle. The point is that Saul went to someone for a prophecy, that person gave him the prophecy, and it seemed to have been a true prophecy. The language in the text itself does not point to it being a demon or anything else. A familiar is not even mentioned. > > >And let's say that necromancy doesn't work (for the sake of argument). Why > >should this then be demons? Why would it not be G-d talking to Saul in a > >way that he would understand? > > Actually, on my re-read of 28, that was what was in my mind. That this > might have been a final test for Saul, and had he NOT went and consorted > with the Witch of Endor and done these forbidden things, and broken faith, > that perhaps God would intervened. Yes, my initial impression was most > likely it was God, or an agent thereof, taking on the guise of Samuel. > I understand the reasoning here, but the text again does not seem to support this. He tried to consult God before he went to the Witch of Endor, and God refused to answer him: 28:5: When Saul saw the Philistine camp, he became fearful; he became very frightened. 6: He inquired of God, but God did not answer him, either by dreams, or by Urim, or by prophets. His breaking faith with God was in his not fulfilling God's commandment to punish the Amalekites, and this whole battle was the result. He had a chance to do Teshuva (repentance) -- indeed, he could have done so at any time, and perhaps he would not have lost his life. But he would have lost his kingship. This was ordained from the moment he refused to kill the Amalekites. This act of necromancy was an act of desparation and of fear. He did not want to give up his kingship and again become Saul the regular Jew. > >I don't see that this is such a problem, btw. > >The floodwaters might have taken forty days to come down. The rain > >stopped. The waters did not go down until 1 year and 1 week. Why is that > >impossible? > > > >And if G-d is creating the flood, why could he not make it rain for 40 > >days and nights? > > Sorry, I meant to imply that I have no reason to doubt that these recorded > periods are true (that even the period covering the rain fall and the > upswelling of the oceans may have occurred over exactly 40 days), but > simply that the general public doesn't know this because they've not read > it for themselves. And even if they did, that it's impossible to know with > absolute certainty without direct (or mayhaps indirect) intervention all > the nuances of the teachings and laws that may be recorded in the books. > > I hate to mention the literary conception of Deconstructionism (ie, the > meaning of a piece of literary work is not whatever the original author > intended -- which is to an extent always unknowable -- but what the > individual reader thinks it means) however it is obvious that this is > continually occurring, albeit not purposely, throughout history because of > misunderstandings in the current reinterpretation of meaning. The texts may > not have changed, but the understanding of them can. (I won't go into this > silly modern concept of a "rapture" that is slowly sweeping the Christian > world, but that's an example.) I have a problem with deconstructionsim where it conflicts with the obvious intent of the text (especially the Bible) -- at least the way you describe it. Yes, different generations will see new things or understand the text slightly differently, but the understanding still has to come from what we know -- the words of the text. And yes, I know that you're going to say that we can't really know the meaning of ancient languages. But my people have made a study of this language for over 3,000 years, and I daresay that the Hebrew of the Torah is one of those languages that defy the normal muddle that time makes of most texts. > One of the things I've wanted to do for years (when I become ridiculously > wealthy :) is to produce all the books of the Bible as a *verbatim* motion > picture series. The actors would do and say *exactly* what they say in the > works, and speak only in the languages they would have spoke. With > absolutely no nods to any modern interpretations. Needless to say, the > 600-disc :) DVD set would contain a great deal of subtitling... but it > would be a worthy project to devote a few years to. > > I would especially like to see Enoch (or my namesake Amos) produced. > Enoch... that'll drive the special effects folks mad trying to figure out > how to accurately model all the flying machines of God :) Sounds like a great project. Something I'd love to see done too. > Speaking of Noah, I leave you with a question that I have occasionally > wondered about... Were Dinosaurs clean or unclean? ;-) Depends. Did they chew their cud and have split hooves? If the answer to both questions is yes, they'd be kosher. But that's if you believe they existed exactly as we've reconstructed them (and exactly when ...) Judith (who loves these great Biblical discussions ...) ______________________________________________________________________ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. 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