Well, don't be sorry that it does, it's a fact that it is anti-Christian but I don't care. I have enough of my own faith to stand up on my legs and write whatever I need to to defend my faith. I don't seem to have any backers here though.
Matt Small PS. I don't hold any of this against any of you. It's a simple debate. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dana Tierney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 4:11 PM Subject: Re: Yet another scumbag parent.... > I am sorry if this list strikes you as anti-Christian. Some of the comments > in the last couple of days certainly have that flavor, I will grant you. > > Personally, I was broght up in an agnostic home and attended a very strict > convent school in my early years. I consider myself a non-practising > catholic. Specifically I do not believe in papal infallibility and I > disagree with the Church's position on birth control. It has historically > been used (and abused) for political reasons, and I think you have to bear > in mind that this organization was unquestionably corrupt in the middle > ages and may still be somewhat affected by worldly considerations. My > daughter currently attends a "christian" church, and I have had a number of > dealings with fundamentalist christians, including working at a couple of > different christian businesses. > > I put christian in quotes because it annoys me slightly that the name has > come to mean not those who believe in the teachings of christ but a certain > type of believer. I *have* run into those who believe that catholics are > not christians; something about graven images. > > Anyway, with that long preamble I have this to say. Some of the very best > people I have ever met have been believers, just fundamentally good people. > I include in this a church secretary I know in Jacksonville, a > receptionist at Integrity Online, and a couple of nuns as well as some of > the people at my daughter's current church. But one of the things they had > in common was a way of looking to the person and encouraging the person > without being preachy or making value judgements. I cannot picture any of > those people saying, oh, we cannot have this man as a bishop because of who > he is... > > I do think that fundamentalist beliefs bother me in that you are saved or > you are not. There is no middle ground. And if you are already saved, then > I think some people rest on their laurels a bit. They are saved and they > look down their noses at people who are not, even if they are not because > that is not the way they want to see things. At best they are perhaps a > little saddened. I dont want anyone praying that I will find Jesus. I > really don't care to discuss what my relationship with Jesus may or may not > be. I am a bit of a mystic and it is something you cannot really discuss > without debasing it. God is God and cannot be explained in human terms, > espcially not by whether rote formulas apply. > > The reaction of some fundamentalists to homosexuality also seems > disproportionately extreme. At times it seems as though some ministers see > it as a worse sin than murder. Is he a godly man? That is what is > important. I see no reason why this bishop cannot be an example to others. > > I do respect your beliefs, though I am (perhaps by personality) less > inclined to accept others' interpretation of the Bible as a guide for my > life. I have thought that that if I convert, I might consider Quakerism. > The idea of listening to that "small still voice" seems to make sense to > me. > > Anyway. I wish you well. Please don't pray for me :) > > Dana > > > > Matthew Small writes: > > > It's obvious you don't get it at all - wait a minute, maybe you do. > > > > Absolutely, it's the whole idea about Christanity - that if you're outside > > of the religion, you're going to Hell. I don't understand what the problem > > is with this. Either you subscribe to the religion, or you don't. Those > > that do subscribe are forgiven and go to Heaven. Those that don't subscribe > > to the religion are not forgiven and go to Hell. There is no two ways about > > it, there's no "forgiveness because he's a good person at heart", no > > in-betweens, no exceptions. Obviously, there are people within the religion > > who commit bad sins, heinous crimes, hold grudges, hate others. Everybody > > points the finger at others for their crimes and sins and ask for > > retribution. Fortunately, Christians know to also look at themselves and > > ask for the forgiveness for their sins (including judgement of others) that > > Jesus Christ gave to us when He died on the cross, and we do try to live the > > right life. > > > > It appears to me that you're saying that the greatest fault with the church > > is the judgement of fellow man. It is a failing, but don't forget the fact > > that the ultimate judgement comes from God, and either you're with Him or > > against Him. > > > > Matthew Small > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jerry Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 1:56 PM > > Subject: Re: Yet another scumbag parent.... > > > > > > > I have been to many, many churches. They are all about the same. Most very > > nice. But the gossip, backstabbing and petty hate has been an integral part > > of all the ones I've spent any time in to date. And it is always the church > > elders and "VIP"s that are the worst offenders. Note, however, it is seldom > > the priests (at least not in my hearing). > > > > > > I don't think that the people should be perfect. But if they point their > > finger at me (or others) and say - You are not following the LAW, then they > > should be willing to look at themselves at the same time, and see how their > > actions fall within their own rules. > > > > > > Most of these churches I have been to have a very active "other" barrier. > > They are very tolerant of those inside the barrier, but do not allow the > > same kind of human foibles to those outside the barrier. The same action > > from one within their group is treated as a forgivable sin, but if done by > > someone outside, "they're going to hell". Fortunately the barrier and > > reasons for it move from group to group, so most people can find a group > > just like them (as you say "personality is more like"). But the very > > existence of that kind of thinking is at odds with the basic teachings of > > all these churches, IMHO. > > > > > > You say this issue about the Bishop is not about hate. It is about hate. > > Not everyone. Those who just disagree, even enthusiastically, are great. > > Differences of opinion are great. That's why there is more than one church. > > People who think this guy is the worst thing to come along since the > > Inquisition have every right to their opinion. Heck, even those people who > > are calling in the death threats have the right to their opinion. Just not > > to act on it. > > > > > > The coverage I have seen (TV, Radio, Internet) have shown that many of > > those in the "against" camp are of the witch-burning variety. Many of them > > hold high positions in the Anglican Church. That is what I find sad and a > > little bit funny. They don't see that their very actions are diametrically > > opposite of what they say they are fighting for. And they guy they are > > fighting against seems to be better at what they say they are fighting for > > than they are. Funny. > > > > > > I do think most Christians (since they fall in the "most people" category) > > are selfish, self absorbed, and quite capable of not only hating, but actual > > being proud of hating. > > > > > > I also never said their (our) religion was invalid. I think its great. And > > I hope that someday they will _follow_ it a little more. > > > > > > Jerry Johnson > > > > > > > > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/06/03 12:32PM >>> > > > I would say that your church is in the minority, and that you don't go to > > > church enough, and that you need to find a church where you feel that your > > > personality is more like those of the congregation. > > > > > > I love my church, I have a good time going, and I don't find most people > > to > > > be hypocrital, just human. It sounds as though you expect all of your > > > church goers to be practically perfect - that just isn't so. If you > > > subscribe to tolerance, don't be bothered by what others do, just live the > > > right life yourself. > > > > > > Take a minute and listen to what the bible-thumbers have to say in it's > > > entirety, and you'll realize that it's not about hate at all, it's about > > > different opinions than yours regarding some issues. Not to say that > > there > > > is not hate, but it's mostly not. > > > > > > It sounds like your opinion of your church leads to you think that most > > > Christians are people filled with hate and therefore their religion is > > > invalid. How's that for intolerance? You're blaming an entire religion > > for > > > the problems that you have your your church. I'm sure that you don't know > > > the people that I go to church with. They are the nicest group of people > > > that I've ever had the chance to be affliated with. > > > > > > Matthew Small > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Jerry Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 12:01 PM > > > Subject: Re: Yet another scumbag parent.... > > > > > > > > > > First off, I am a Christian. Methodist to be precise. > > > > > > > > But I don't often go to Church. > > > > > > > > I find that the Church, and most of those who practice the Christian > > > religions, somewhat hypocritical. (And I do know this is an insult.) > > > > They preach love and tolerance, but seldom practice it. And don't really > > > try too hard. Nor feel bad about it when they don't. They tend to be > > really > > > good haters. And if you don't toe the line exactly as they define it (and > > > there are hundreds of lines, all drawn in different places) you are a bad, > > > bad person, and deserve all you get. > > > > > > > > As for this guy, I truly don't care one way or another. If his > > > congregation is for him, that's what matters to me. Intellectually. It > > > doesn't really matter to me at all in the overall sense. But I do get > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=5 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribe&forumid=5 This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. http://www.cfhosting.com Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.5
