and the push started even earlier than that, e.g.: Goering, J.J., Nelson, D.M. and Carter, J.A., 1973. Silicic acid uptake by natural populations of marine phytoplankton. In *Deep Sea Research and Oceanographic Abstracts* (Vol. 20, No. 9, pp. 777-789).
Brzezinski was also a big proponent in the 1990s. On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 7:23 AM, James Orr <james....@lsce.ipsl.fr> wrote: > Hi Roy, > > There has been a trend as you suggest, although it started a few decades > ago, e.g., "silicic acid" is used instead of "silicate" in the following: > > Gordon, L. I., Jennings Jr, J. C., Ross, A. A., & Krest, J. M. (1993). A > suggested protocol for continuous flow automated analysis of seawater > nutrients (phosphate, nitrate, nitrite and silicic acid) in the WOCE > Hydrographic Program and the Joint Global Ocean Fluxes Study. WOCE > Operations Manual, Part, 3(3), 91-1. > > Knap, A. H., Michaels, A., Close, A. R., Ducklow, H., & Dickson, A. G. > (1996). Protocols for the joint global ocean flux study (JGOFS) core > measurements. > > For our purposes though, both terms can be used synonymously. To avoid > confusion, would you agree to the following 2nd correction to the CF > Standard Name List: > > (2) '"Dissolved inorganic silicon" means the sum of all dissolved silicon > in solution (including silicic acid and its first dissociated anion > SiO(OH)3-)' > i.e., for the definition of mole_concentration_of_dissolve > d_inorganic_silicon_in_sea_water > > I've just now replaced 'silicate' with 'its first dissociated anion > SiO(OH)3-' to keep the more general sense of silicate intact. For > simplicity, we may want to remove the chemical formula after the word > 'anion'. > > Your thoughts? > > Jim > > On Mon, 27 Mar 2017, Lowry, Roy K. wrote: > > >> Many thanks James, >> >> >> I like it. I had visions of tens of thousands of files needing to be >> edited - we're bringing in semantically >> aware compliance checkers that require action if deprecated terms are >> used. >> >> >> Interesting, in 36 years I have never heard an oceanographer refer to >> silicic acid - it's always been >> 'silicate' referring to the measurement made by the standard colorometric >> analytical technique. >> >> >> Out of curiosity I'll sound out my own organisation (UK National >> Oceanography Centre) on the usage of DIP and >> DISi to see if there is any change in the viewpoint in the younger >> oceanographers. >> >> >> Cheers, Roy. >> >> ____________________________________________________________ >> _________________________________________________ >> >> From: James Orr <james....@lsce.ipsl.fr> >> Sent: 25 March 2017 14:21 >> To: Lowry, Roy K. >> Cc: John Dunne - NOAA Federal; <martin.juc...@stfc.ac.uk>; Alison >> Pamment; cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu >> Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Silicate vs. dissolved inorganic silicon >> Hi Roy, >> >> I understand your concern and would agree that it would be fine to keep >> the standard names but to explain what we mean by them in the >> definitions. >> >> So in response to Martin's questions, I would suggest the following >> corrections in the CF Standard Name List: >> >> (1) '"Dissolved inorganic phosphorus" means the sum of all dissolved >> inorganic phosphorus in solution (including phosphate, hydrogen >> phosphate, dihydrogen phosphate, and phosphoric acid)' for the >> definition of >> mole_concentration_of_dissolved_inorganic_phosphorus_in_sea_water, and >> >> (2) '"Dissolved inorganic silicon" means the sum of all dissolved >> silicon in solution (including silicic acid and silicate)' for the >> definition of >> mole_concentration_of_dissolved_inorganic_silicon_in_sea_water >> >> By the way, although many oceanographers refer only to silicate as you >> mention, many others refer only to silicic acid. In both cases though >> what is meant is the sum of both. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Jim >> >> On Fri, 24 Mar 2017, Lowry, Roy K. wrote: >> >> > >> > Dear All, >> > >> > >> > That would make no sense at all for the observational oceanographic >> community who have referred to silicate >> > and phosphate for decades because all the various types of phosphate >> and silicate react to the standard >> > colorometric reagents in exactly the same way. Replacing terminology in >> common usage with more pedantic >> > synonyms can only result in confusion. >> > >> > >> > So, the situation we have is that we have a technically precise >> Standard Names and Standard Names that >> > reflect terminology in common usage. One solution might be to leave >> all four Standard Names in place but >> to >> > clarify the definitions. In our server the pairs could be mapped as >> synonyms if Alison requests it. >> > >> > >> > Cheers, Roy. >> > >> > >> > Please note that I partially retired on 01/11/2015. I am now only >> working 7.5 hours a week and can only >> > guarantee e-mail response on Wednesdays, my day in the office. All >> vocabulary queries should be sent to >> > enquir...@bodc.ac.uk. Please also use this e-mail if your requirement >> is urgent. >> > >> > >> > >> >___________________________________________________________ >> _________________________________________________ >> _ >> > From: John Dunne - NOAA Federal <john.du...@noaa.gov> >> > Sent: 24 March 2017 17:14 >> > To: <martin.juc...@stfc.ac.uk> >> > Cc: James Orr; Lowry, Roy K.; Alison Pamment; cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu >> > Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Silicate vs. dissolved inorganic silicon >> > Is the plan also to demote the "silicate" and "phosphate" names? That >> would seem to make sense to me, >> > consistent with Jim's points. >> > >> > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 12:13 PM, <martin.juc...@stfc.ac.uk> wrote: >> > Dear Jim, >> > >> > thanks. I think that means that we need a corrections to the >> statements, from the CF Standard >> > Name list, that: >> > >> > (1) '"Dissolved inorganic phosphorus" means phosphate ions in >> solution' in the CF Standard Name >> > definition for mole_concentration_of_dissolve >> d_inorganic_phosphorus_in_sea_water, and >> > (2) '"Dissolved inorganic silicon" means silicate ions in >> solution' in the definition of >> > mole_concentration_of_dissolved_inorganic_silicon_in_sea_water >> > >> > regards, >> > Martin >> > ________________________________________ >> > From: James Orr [james....@lsce.ipsl.fr] >> > Sent: 24 March 2017 15:46 >> > To: Lowry, Roy K. >> > Cc: Juckes, Martin (STFC,RAL,RALSP); cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu >> > Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Silicate vs. dissolved inorganic >> silicon >> > >> > Dissolved inorganic phosphorus in seawater takes several forms, >> with >> > phosphate (P043-) being only one of them. Furthermore, PO43- is >> not >> > even the most abundant form at normal seawater pH. Rather it is >> HPO42- >> > (hydrogen phosphate). Oceanographers do often refer to phosphate >> but >> > what they really taking about is total dissolved inorganic >> phosphorus >> > (the sum of all inorganic forms). >> > >> > The seawater system for dissolved inorganic silicon is simpler >> because >> > we only need to consider two forms: silicic acid (Si(OH)4) and >> silicate >> > (SiO(OH)3-). The former is more abundant than the latter in >> seawater. >> > >> > It is best then to refer to >> > - total dissolved inorganic phosphorus rather than phosphate and >> > - total dissolved inorganic silicon rather than silicate. >> > >> > For more insight see the last figure in the OMIP-BGC protocols >> paper >> > in the CMIP6 special issue at >> > >> > http://www.geosci-model-dev-discuss.net/gmd-2016-155/ >> GMDD - Biogeochemical protocols and diagnostics for the ... >> www.geosci-model-dev-discuss.net >> Biogeochemical protocols and diagnostics for the CMIP6 Ocean Model >> Intercomparison Project (OMIP) >> >> >> > >> > Cheers, >> > >> > Jim >> > >> > On Fri, 24 Mar 2017, Lowry, Roy K. wrote: >> > >> > > Dear All, >> > > >> > > >> > > If one makes the assumption that all the silicon and phosphorus >> atoms not associated with >> > organic ligands are >> > > in a single chemical form associated with oxygen in solution >> then what Martin says is correct. >> > In my >> > > experience I have never known anybody challenge this assumption >> and I cannot think of any other >> > anions >> > > incorporating P and Si. Consequently, I would agree that whilst >> there is a theoretical semantic >> > difference >> > > between the members of each Standard Name pair I would agree >> that this could be ignored and >> > they could be >> > > considered synonyms. >> > > >> > > >> > > Note, this only holds true as these are MOLE concentrations. >> The MASS concentration of >> > inorganic phosphorus >> > > is very different from the MASS concentration of phosphate as >> the oxygen atoms have mass. >> > > >> > > >> > > If the decision is taken to take action on this then I would >> recommend that the >> > 'inorganic_silicon' and >> > > 'inorganic_phosphorus' names be than ones to be converted to >> aliases. This is based on common >> > terminology >> > > usage in the oceanographic community. >> > > >> > > >> > > Cheers, Roy. >> > > >> > > >> > > Please note that I partially retired on 01/11/2015. I am now >> only working 7.5 hours a week and >> > can only >> > > guarantee e-mail response on Wednesdays, my day in the office. >> All vocabulary queries should be >> > sent to >> > > enquir...@bodc.ac.uk. Please also use this e-mail if your >> requirement is urgent. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >____________________________________________________ >> _______________________________________________________ >> _ >> > _ >> > > From: CF-metadata <cf-metadata-boun...@cgd.ucar.edu> on behalf >> of martin.juc...@stfc.ac.uk >> > > <martin.juc...@stfc.ac.uk> >> > > Sent: 24 March 2017 08:48 >> > > To: cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu >> > > Subject: [CF-metadata] Silicate vs. dissolved inorganic silicon >> > > Hello Alison, others, >> > > >> > > the standard name list includes both >> > > (1) mole_concentration_of_dissolved_inorganic_silicon_in_sea_water >> and (2) >> > > mole_concentration_of_silicate_in_sea_water >> > > >> > > The definition of the first says that "dissolved inorganic >> silicon" means silicate ions in >> > solution. Both >> > > have units of "mol m-3". It looks to me as though they are >> describing the same thing. If this >> > is true, should >> > > one be demoted to the alias of the other? If they are >> different, what is the difference? >> > > >> > > The same question applies to mole_concentration_of_dissolve >> d_inorganic_phosphorus_in_sea_water >> > and >> > > mole_concentration_of_phosphate_in_sea_water. >> > > >> > > regards, >> > > Martin >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > CF-metadata mailing list >> > > CF-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu >> > > http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata >> CF-metadata Info Page - mailman.cgd.ucar.edu Mailing Lists >> mailman.cgd.ucar.edu >> This is an unmoderated list for discussions about interpretation, >> clarification, and proposals for extensions >> or change to the CF conventions. >> >> >> > > CF-metadata Info Page - mailman.cgd.ucar.edu Mailing Lists >> > > mailman.cgd.ucar.edu >> > > This is an unmoderated list for discussions about >> interpretation, clarification, and proposals >> > for extensions >> > > or change to the CF conventions. >> > > >> > > >> > >____________________________________________________ >> _______________________________________________________ >> _ >> > _ >> > > This message (and any attachments) is for the recipient only. >> NERC is subject to the Freedom of >> > Information >> > > Act 2000 and the contents of this email and any reply you make >> may be disclosed by NERC unless >> > it is exempt >> > > from release under the Act. Any material supplied to NERC may >> be stored in an electronic >> > records management >> > > system. >> > > >> > >____________________________________________________ >> _______________________________________________________ >> _ >> > _ >> > > >> > > >> > >> > -- >> > LSCE/IPSL, Laboratoire des Sciences du Climat et de >> l'Environnement >> > CEA-CNRS-UVSQ >> > >> > LSCE/IPSL, CEA Saclay http://www.ipsl.jussieu.fr/~jomce >> > Bat. 712 - Orme mailto: james....@lsce.ipsl.fr >> > Point courrier 132 >> > F-91191 Gif-sur-Yvette Cedex Phone: (33) (0)1 69 08 39 73 >> > FRANCE Fax: (33) (0)1 69 08 30 73 >> > _______________________________________________ >> > CF-metadata mailing list >> > CF-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu >> > http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata >> CF-metadata Info Page - mailman.cgd.ucar.edu Mailing Lists >> mailman.cgd.ucar.edu >> This is an unmoderated list for discussions about interpretation, >> clarification, and proposals for extensions >> or change to the CF conventions. >> >> >> > >> > >> >___________________________________________________________ >> _________________________________________________ >> _ >> > This message (and any attachments) is for the recipient only. NERC is >> subject to the Freedom of Information >> > Act 2000 and the contents of this email and any reply you make may be >> disclosed by NERC unless it is exempt >> > from release under the Act. Any material supplied to NERC may be stored >> in an electronic records management >> > system. >> > >> >___________________________________________________________ >> _________________________________________________ >> _ >> > >> > >> >> -- >> LSCE/IPSL, Laboratoire des Sciences du Climat et de l'Environnement >> CEA-CNRS-UVSQ >> >> LSCE/IPSL, CEA Saclay http://www.ipsl.jussieu.fr/~jomce >> Bat. 712 - Orme mailto: james....@lsce.ipsl.fr >> Point courrier 132 >> F-91191 Gif-sur-Yvette Cedex Phone: (33) (0)1 69 08 39 73 >> FRANCE Fax: (33) (0)1 69 08 30 73 >> >> ____________________________________________________________ >> _________________________________________________ >> This message (and any attachments) is for the recipient only. NERC is >> subject to the Freedom of Information >> Act 2000 and the contents of this email and any reply you make may be >> disclosed by NERC unless it is exempt >> from release under the Act. Any material supplied to NERC may be stored >> in an electronic records management >> system. >> >> ____________________________________________________________ >> _________________________________________________ >> >> >> > -- > LSCE/IPSL, Laboratoire des Sciences du Climat et de l'Environnement > CEA-CNRS-UVSQ > > LSCE/IPSL, CEA Saclay http://www.ipsl.jussieu.fr/~jomce > Bat. 712 - Orme mailto: james....@lsce.ipsl.fr > Point courrier 132 > F-91191 Gif-sur-Yvette Cedex Phone: (33) (0)1 69 08 39 73 > FRANCE Fax: (33) (0)1 69 08 30 73 >
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