Sorry,
I meant: I agree that change_over_time_in_land_water_amount cannot be aliassed and should be considered as a valid term for a different quantity. regards, Martin ________________________________ From: Juckes, Martin (STFC,RAL,RALSP) Sent: 04 July 2018 14:00:20 To: Pamment, Alison (STFC,RAL,RALSP); cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu; j.m.greg...@reading.ac.uk Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Standard names for LS3MIP: 8 temporal changes + 1 feature depth Dear Alison, thanks for clearing up the confusion over change_over_time_in_land_surface_liquid_water_amount: I agree that change_over_time_in_land_surface_liquid_water_amount cannot be aliassed and should be considered as a valid term for a different quantity. For land_water_amount : yes, please amend to say grounded ice sheets not displacing sea water -- this is there because of the specific role of "Terrestrial Water Storage" in representing water which can contribute to sea level rise. regards, Martin ________________________________ From: Pamment, Alison (STFC,RAL,RALSP) Sent: 04 July 2018 12:17 To: Juckes, Martin (STFC,RAL,RALSP); cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu; j.m.greg...@reading.ac.uk Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Standard names for LS3MIP: 8 temporal changes + 1 feature depth Dear Martin, Thank you for looking again at the various water and ice quantities. I will try to summarise the current situation, just to make sure we are both on the same page with these quite complicated names! CMIP6 short name sw. The name land_surface_liquid_water_amount (kg m-2) 'The surface called "surface" means the lower boundary of the atmosphere. "Amount" means mass per unit area. The quantity with standard name land_surface_liquid_water_amount includes water in rivers, wetlands, lakes, reservoirs and liquid precipitation intercepted by the vegetation canopy.' has been included in this week's update. We seemed to have reached agreement on that one. In this week's update I have also included the PMIP name land_water_amount (kg m-2) ' "Amount" means mass per unit area. "Water" means water in all phases. The quantity with standard name land_water_amount, often known as "Terrestrial Water Storage", includes surface liquid water (water in rivers, wetlands, lakes, reservoirs, rainfall intercepted by the canopy), surface ice and snow (glaciers, ice caps, grounded ice sheets, river and lake ice and other surface ice such as frozen flood water, snow lying on the surface and intercepted by the canopy) and subsurface water (liquid and frozen soil water, groundwater).' The definition was drawn from Hyungjun's description. I have included grounded ice sheets in the list, but should I change that to say 'grounded ice sheets not displacing sea water'? If so, I will amend the definition in the next update. For LS3MIP proposal 1.6 I'm afraid I did get confused and thought we were talking about change in land_water_amount. I included it in this week's update as change_over_time_in_land_water_amount and wrote the definition accordingly. Evidently we need a different name, change_over_time_in_land_surface_liquid_water_amount. Since land_surface_liquid_water_amount has now been added, I see no problem in creating this new name. Therefore, in the next update I will add: change_over_time_in_land_surface_liquid_water_amount (kg m-2) 'The phrase "change_over_time_in_X" means change in a quantity X over a time-interval, which should be defined by the bounds of the time coordinate. The surface called "surface" means the lower boundary of the atmosphere. "Amount" means mass per unit area. "Land surface liquid water" includes water in rivers, wetlands, lakes, reservoirs and liquid precipitation intercepted by the vegetation canopy.' Even though it seems we don't actually need it for CMIP6, I will leave change_over_time_in_land_water_amount in the table as a separate name - it wouldn't really make sense to turn it into an alias of the surface_liquid_water name. Thank you for answering my question about the inclusion of ice sheets and shelves for proposals 1.5 and 1.8. > 1.5 CMIP6 short name dsn. Change in snow water equivalent (including snow and > ice) change_over_time_in_amount_of_ice_and_snow_on_land (kg m-2) 'The phrase "change_over_time_in_X" means change in a quantity X over a time-interval, which should be defined by the bounds of the time coordinate. "Amount" means mass per unit area. The phrase "ice_and_snow_on_land" means ice in glaciers, ice caps, ice sheets & shelves, river and lake ice, any other ice on a land surface, such as frozen flood water, and snow lying on such ice or on the land surface.' This name is accepted for inclusion in the standard name table and will be added in the next update. > 1.8 CMIP6 short name dtesn. Change in snow/ice cold content (CliC) change_over_time_in_thermal_energy_content_of_ice_and_snow_on_land (J m-2) 'The phrase "change_over_time_in_X" means change in a quantity X over a time-interval, which should be defined by the bounds of the time coordinate. The surface called "surface" means the lower boundary of the atmosphere. "Content" indicates a quantity per unit area. Thermal energy is the total vibrational energy, kinetic and potential, of all the molecules and atoms in a substance. The phrase "ice_and_snow_on_land" means ice in glaciers, ice caps, ice sheets & shelves, river and lake ice, any other ice on a land surface, such as frozen flood water, and snow lying on such ice or on the land surface.' This name is accepted for inclusion in the standard name table and will be added in the next update. I have added change_over_time_in_groundwater_amount and change_over_time_in_river_water_amount in this week's update, as there were no remaining questions about their definitions. > 2.1 CMIP6 short name dmlt. Depth to soil thaw (CliC) Depth from surface to > the zero degree isotherm. Above this isotherm T > 0o, and below this line T < > 0o. I think we are now agreed on depth_at_shallowest_isotherm_defined_by_soil_temperature (m) 'Depth is the vertical distance below the surface. A soil temperature profile may go through one or more local minima or maxima. The "depth at shallowest isotherm" is the depth of the occurrence closest to the soil surface of an isotherm of the temperature specified by a coordinate variable or scalar coordinate variable with standard name soil_temperature.' We have also agreed the creation of a new area type, unfrozen_ground. I have added unfrozen_ground to the area type table in this week's update. The standard name is now accepted and will be included in the next update. If we can clarify the point about grounded ice sheets in the definition of land_water_amount I think all the names in this thread will be finalised. Best wishes, Alison ________________________________________ From: CF-metadata <cf-metadata-boun...@cgd.ucar.edu> on behalf of Martin Juckes - UKRI STFC <martin.juc...@stfc.ac.uk> Sent: 03 July 2018 11:13 To: cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu; j.m.greg...@reading.ac.uk Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Standard names for LS3MIP: 8 temporal changes + 1 feature depth Dear Alison For 1.6 (change in surface water amount, CMIP6 variable dsw) the term should reflect the choice for surface water amount (CMIP6 variable sw), and I've tried to summarise the latest comments here: http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/pipermail/cf-metadata/2018/020327.html <http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/pipermail/cf-metadata/2018/020327.html>This would make it change_over_time_in_land_surface_liquid_water_amount ... but that name is still under discussion. This surface liquid water amount is distinct from the water storage term represented by the land_water_amount which has already been agreed. The confusion between the two may have originated from my earlier posts to this list. For 1.5 and 1.8, Hyungjun's comments refer to the terrestrial water storage term which is a rather specialist term excluding both floating ice and grounded ice which is displacing sea water. The majority of snow and ice terms deal with the broader definition of land surface to include floating land ice. The study of the finer details of what is happening around the grounding line which separates ice shelves and sheets is happening in ISMIP6, and they are not interested in the LS3MIP variables which will use terms defined in 1.5 and 1.8. Taking these things into account, I believe that we should define terms 1.5 and 1.8 to include ice shelves and sheets. I agree with the other suggestion, regards, Martin ________________________________ From: CF-metadata <cf-metadata-boun...@cgd.ucar.edu> on behalf of Jonathan Gregory <jonathan.greg...@ncas.ac.uk> Sent: 01 July 2018 18:27 To: cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Standard names for LS3MIP: 8 temporal changes + 1 feature depth Dear Alison These all look fine to me. Thanks very much Jonathan ----- Forwarded message from Alison Pamment - UKRI STFC <alison.pamm...@stfc.ac.uk> ----- > Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 09:16:51 +0000 > From: Alison Pamment - UKRI STFC <alison.pamm...@stfc.ac.uk> > To: "cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu" <cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu> > Cc: Hyungjun Kim <hj...@iis.u-tokyo.ac.jp> > Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Standard names for LS3MIP: 8 temporal changes + 1 > feature depth > > Dear Martin and Jonathan, > > Just picking up on this thread again - this is the 3rd (and final) group of > LS3MIP names remaining to be resolved. > > We have now received clarification of how various parts of the land liquid > water and ice budget are calculated, which I copy below so that we have a > record in this public discussion: > > 1) If we preferentially focus on mass balance, it would be straightforward > > to have: > > + soil moisture : total water in soil column > > + water table depth : depth of saturation > > + groundwater recharge : water flux at water table (which should be > > base flow if water table depth is lower than model soil depth) > > > > 2) In terrestrial hydrology, cold processes and associated storage are > > treated with liquid phase processes in general. > > Therefore, it would be more useful to have them in separated variables. > > > > 3) I mostly agree with you suggestion, but because of reason 2), it would > > be better to be defined as (although it is same to yours > > physically) summation of: > > + liquid phase surface water (water in rivers, wetlands, lakes, > > vegetation, reservoirs, canopy interception) > > + snow (&canopy interception), and ice, including grounded ice sheets > > and ice on lakes etc, but excluding ice shelves floating in sea water > > + liquid subsurface water > > + solid subsurface water > Many thanks to Hyungjun Kim for clarifying these important questions. > > I have used this explanation to finish writing definitions for these names. I > think most of the terms could now be accepted if you are happy with the > definitions. I have a question as to whether proposals 1.5 and 1.8 should > really include floating ice shelves, which seem to be explicitly excluded in > Hyungjun's text. > > > 1.2 CMIP6 short name dgw. Change in Groundwater We do not currently > >have any terms specifically for groundwater, so this concept needs to be > >defined: the following is proposed: "Groundwater is the subsurface water in > >the saturated zone." > > > > + propose: change_over_time_in_groundwater_amount (kg m-2) > > From Hyungjun's description I have defined groundwater as 'Groundwater is > subsurface water below the depth of the water table.' This then gives us the > following definition for the proposed term: > 'The phrase "change_over_time_in_X" means change in a quantity X over a > time-interval, which should be defined by the bounds of the time coordinate. > "Water" means water in all phases. Groundwater is subsurface water below the > depth of the water table. "Amount" means mass per unit area.' > > Okay? > > > 1.3 CMIP6 short name drivw. Change in River Storage There is no > > existing term for the amount of water in rivers, though there are > > several for the rate of flow. Such terms as exist make no explicit > > reference to the definition of the what is meant by river water, so a > > clarification note is proposed. > > > > + Propose: change_over_time_in_river_water_amount (kg m-2) "River > > + water amount refers to the water in the fluvial system (stream and > > floodplain)". > > For the river flow names, we decided that they include water in all phases > (http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/pipermail/cf-metadata/2018/020241.html, proposal > 5), therefore I assume this one does too. Hence the definition would be: > 'The phrase "change_over_time_in_X" means change in a quantity X over a > time-interval, which should be defined by the bounds of the time coordinate. > "Water" means water in all phases. "River" refers to the water in the fluvial > system (stream and floodplain). "Amount" means mass per unit area.' > > Okay? > > > 1.5 CMIP6 short name dsn. Change in snow water equivalent (including > > snow and ice) > > > > The ice includes all the ice above ground, including glaciers, ice sheets > > and floating ice shelves. > > > > + Propose: change_over_time_in_surface_snow_and_ice_amount (kg m-2) > > The 'ice_and_snow_on_land' definition we agreed in > http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/pipermail/cf-metadata/2018/020250.html for the > nudging standard name and area_type seems a better fit to the proposed > quantity than land_ice because it includes river and lake ice, as well as > snow. > Hence I am changing my suggestion for this name to be: > change_over_time_in_amount_of_ice_and_snow_on_land (kg m-2) > 'The phrase "change_over_time_in_X" means change in a quantity X over a > time-interval, which should be defined by the bounds of the time coordinate. > "Amount" means mass per unit area. The phrase "ice_and_snow_on_land" means > ice in glaciers, ice caps, ice sheets & shelves, river and lake ice, any > other ice on a land surface, such as frozen flood water, and snow lying on > such ice or on the land surface.' > > This name and definition agree with the original proposal, but I note that > Hyungjun's text says 'excluding ice shelves floating in sea water' in the > second bullet of point (3). Are we sure that this CMIP dsn variable should > include ice shelves? > > > 1.6 CMIP6 short name dsw. Change in Surface Water Storage Surface > > water storage is interpreted as terrestrial water storage, which has a > > recently discussed name land_water_amount. > > > > + Propose: change_over_time_in_land_water_amount (kg m-2) > > Hyungjun's description of all land water components says: > > + liquid phase surface water (water in rivers, wetlands, lakes, > > vegetation, reservoirs, canopy interception) > > + snow (&canopy interception), and ice, including grounded ice sheets > > and ice on lakes etc, but excluding ice shelves floating in sea water > > + liquid subsurface water > > + solid subsurface water > > Hence, I would write the definition of land_water_amount (proposed for PMIP) > as: > ' "Amount" means mass per unit area. "Water" means water in all phases. The > quantity with standard name land_water_amount, often known as "Terrestrial > Water Storage", includes surface liquid water (water in rivers, wetlands, > lakes, reservoirs, rainfall intercepted by the canopy), surface ice and snow > (glaciers, ice caps, grounded ice sheets, river and lake ice and other > surface ice such as frozen flood water, snow lying on the surface and > intercepted by the canopy) and subsurface water (liquid and frozen soil > water, groundwater).' > > (This PMIP name can now also be accepted if you are happy with the > definition. N.B. It excludes floating ice shelves). > > Following on from this, the proposed name would be: > change_over_time_in_land_water_amount (kg m-2) > 'The phrase "change_over_time_in_X" means change in a quantity X over a > time-interval, which should be defined by the bounds of the time coordinate. > "Amount" means mass per unit area. "Water" means water in all phases. The > quantity with standard name land_water_amount, often known as "Terrestrial > Water Storage", includes surface liquid water (water in rivers, wetlands, > lakes, reservoirs, rainfall intercepted by the canopy), surface ice and snow > (glaciers, ice caps, grounded ice sheets, river and lake ice and other > surface ice such as frozen flood water, snow lying on the surface and > intercepted by the canopy) and subsurface water (liquid and frozen soil > water, groundwater).' > > Okay? > > > 1.8 CMIP6 short name dtesn. Change in snow/ice cold content (CliC) > > "thermal_energy_content_of_surface_snow" exists, we can extend with > > "_and_ice". > > > > The ice includes all the ice above ground, including glaciers, ice sheets > > and floating ice shelves. > > > > + Propose: > > + change_over_time_in_thermal_energy_content_of_surface_snow_and_ice > > + (J m-2) > > As for proposal 1.5 I am changing my suggestion to use the newly defined > 'ice_and_snow_on_land': > change_over_time_in_thermal_energy_content_of_ice_and_snow_on_land (J m-2). > 'The phrase "change_over_time_in_X" means change in a quantity X over a > time-interval, which should be defined by the bounds of the time coordinate. > The surface called "surface" means the lower boundary of the atmosphere. > "Content" indicates a quantity per unit area. Thermal energy is the total > vibrational energy, kinetic and potential, of all the molecules and atoms in > a substance. The phrase "ice_and_snow_on_land" means ice in glaciers, ice > caps, ice sheets & shelves, river and lake ice, any other ice on a land > surface, such as frozen flood water, and snow lying on such ice or on the > land surface. > > Okay? As with 1.5, I'd like to double check that we should include floating > ice shelves, because this seems to differ from Hyungjun's description. > > > 2. Feature depths > > > > 2.1 CMIP6 short name dmlt. Depth to soil thaw (CliC) Depth from > > surface to the zero degree isotherm. Above this isotherm T > 0o, and below > > this line T < 0o. > > > > When the surface temperature is above 0K and there is frozen soil at > > some point beneath the surface, thawed_soil_depth is the distance from the > > surface to the first 0K isotherm. When there is no thawed soil layer, the > > parameter should be reported as missing. > > > > + Proposed: thawed_soil_depth > > For this one I previously suggested: > depth_at_shallowest_isotherm_defined_by_soil_temperature (m) > 'Depth is the vertical distance below the surface. A soil temperature profile > may go through one or more local minima or maxima. The "depth at shallowest > isotherm" is the depth of the occurrence closest to the soil surface of an > isotherm of the temperature specified by a coordinate variable or scalar > coordinate variable with standard name soil_temperature.' > > We already have soil_temperature as a standard name. Following discussion > (off list) with Martin, I think we also need to add a new area type of > 'unfrozen_soil' because this quantity should only be reported where the soil > at the surface is thawed. > > Okay? > > Best wishes, > Alison > > ------ > Alison Pamment Tel: +44 1235 778065 > NCAS/Centre for Environmental Data Archival Email: > alison.pamm...@stfc.ac.uk > STFC Rutherford Appleton Laboratory > R25, 2.22 > Harwell Oxford, Didcot, OX11 0QX, U.K. > > -----Original Message----- > From: CF-metadata <cf-metadata-boun...@cgd.ucar.edu> On Behalf Of Martin > Juckes - UKRI STFC > Sent: 17 May 2018 16:50 > To: cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu > Cc: Hyungjun Kim <hj...@iis.u-tokyo.ac.jp> > Subject: [CF-metadata] Standard names for LS3MIP: 8 temporal changes + 1 > feature depth > > Dear All, > > Following some discussion with Hyungjun, I'd like to propose the following > new standard names to support the LS3MIP CMIP6 data request. > > 1. Changes over time > > 1.1 dcw Change in Interception Storage [kg m-2] > The standard name "canopy_water_amount" exists. > + Propose: change_over_time_in_canopy_water_amount > > 1.2 dgw Change in Groundwater [kg m-2] > We do not currently have any terms specifically for groundwater, so this > concept needs to be defined: the following is proposed: "Groundwater is the > subsurface water in the saturated zone." > + propose: change_over_time_in_groundwater_amount > > 1.3 drivw Change in River Storage [kg m-2] > There is no existing term for the amount of water in rivers, though there are > several for the rate of flow. Such terms as exist make no explicit reference > to the definition of the what is meant by river water, so a clarification > note is proposed. > > + Propose: change_over_time_in_river_water_amount > + "River water amount refers to the water in the fluvial system (stream and > floodplain)". > > 1.4 dslw Change in soil moisture [kg m-2] > Relates to changes in quantity mass_content_of_water_in_soil > > + Propose: change_over_time_in_mass_content_of_water_in_soil > > 1.5 dsn Change in snow water equivalent (including snow and ice) [kg m-2] > > The ice includes all the ice above ground, including glaciers, ice sheets and > floating ice shelves. > > + Propose: change_over_time_in_surface_snow_and_ice_amount > > 1.6 dsw Change in Surface Water Storage [kg m-2] > Surface water storage is interpreted as terrestrial water storage, which has > a recently discussed name land_water_amount. > > + Propose: change_over_time_in_land_water_amount > > 1.7 dtes Change in surface heat storage (excluding snow and ice) [J m-2] > Includes soil layers+canopy+any other except snow/ice. > > + Propose: > + change_over_time_in_thermal_energy_content_of_vegetation_and_litter_an > + d_soil > > 1.8 dtesn Change in snow/ice cold content [J m-2] (CliC) > "thermal_energy_content_of_surface_snow" exists, we can extend with > "_and_ice". > > The ice includes all the ice above ground, including glaciers, ice sheets and > floating ice shelves. > > + Propose: > + change_over_time_in_thermal_energy_content_of_surface_snow_and_ice > > 2. Feature depths > > 2.1 dmlt Depth to soil thaw [m] (CliC) > Depth from surface to the zero degree isotherm. Above this isotherm T > 0o, > and below this line T < 0o. > > When the surface temperature is above 0K and there is frozen soil at some > point beneath the surface, thawed_soil_depth is the distance from the surface > to the first 0K isotherm. When there is no thawed soil layer, the parameter > should be reported as missing. > > + Proposed: thawed_soil_depth > > regards, > Martin > ------ > Alison Pamment Tel: +44 1235 778065 > NCAS/Centre for Environmental Data Archival Email: > alison.pamm...@stfc.ac.uk > STFC Rutherford Appleton Laboratory > R25, 2.22 > Harwell Oxford, Didcot, OX11 0QX, U.K. > _______________________________________________ > CF-metadata mailing list > CF-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu > http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata ----- End forwarded message ----- _______________________________________________ CF-metadata mailing list CF-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata _______________________________________________ CF-metadata mailing list CF-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata _______________________________________________ CF-metadata mailing list CF-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata
