It all has to do with where you (or the person making the comments) are coming from. Someone without certs won't value them at all. Someone with a number of certs will usually place a high value on the certs. Of course, experience is everything. We've a guy at our office with his MCSE+DBA who couldn't recall any SQL if you asked him today. He took and passed the 3 required SQL tests last year after brain-dumping and taking them repeatedly (2-3 times per test, I believe). Every time we get an SQL problem, I love sending the call to him and then watch him try to wiggle his way out of it. It took him 3 tries to pass the CCNAv2, and now he's on to the CCNP. He wanted to know why he should do the Remote Access test instead of the Routing test. He's worked with ISDN and T1s and perhaps a few frame connections. I asked him, "What can you tell me about OSPF, EIGRP or BGP," and he said, "EIGRP is a routing protocol like RIP, and I guess the rest are routing protocols." Sorry, I'm venting. I'm just hoping we're not paying him much. I've run across a number of people I'd like to hire to replace him. His idea of research is beeping everyone in the office on their Nextels until he finds out what he needs. It was the funniest night: 3 of us were sitting around last year playing with Windows 2000. I got the first beep from him, asking a general question, and I replied back with a general answer. He beeped one of the other guys in the room with me with a question asking," How do I do 'such and such'." The question was the exact general answer I'd given him. That co-worker then replied with some more specific info, and suggested looking it up on CCO. Next thing we know, not 5 seconds later, he beeps the third engineer in the room and asked him some more details. Anyway, our general feeling about the guy is to ignore him unless there is absolutely nothing else going on. It's one thing to be totally stuck and need a little guidance, but once you're given some guidance, use it until you hit another wall, not just to ask more intelligent questions. My boss just keeps telling me, "Just send him all your grunt work." But even that isn't much solace to me, ask he usually screws up even grunt work and it's just easier to do it myself than delegate to him. -- Jason Roysdon, CCNP+Security/CCDP, MCSE, CNA, Network+, A+ List email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://jason.artoo.net/ Cisco resources: http://r2cisco.artoo.net/ "Scott Baron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > Has anyone noticed that people arguing the most that certs dont matter are > the ones that haven't 'bothered' to get them. > > I know that isn't true for everyone... so don't flame me but... see where > generalities get you! How shortsited can you be to simply make a blanket > statement... certs don't prove anything... geez. > > Scott M. Baron > CCNP, CCDP, MCP, CNA > > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Macaulay [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 9:30 AM > To: The.Rock; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply > > > "certs don't prove anything" ??? I'm not sure that I can agree with that > statement. Certs IMHO represent an interest by the individual in the subject > matter, and a determined effort to undertake studies necessary to become > more knowledgeable. > > Certainly, obtaining a cert. does not make one a guru. But it usually > (albeit not all the time) indicates a person who has shown some willingness > to learn. I view the knowledge I gained by studying for my certs as a > foundation to be built upon over the coming years. Perhaps I have only a > passing or introductory knowledge of some subjects at this juncture -- but I > assume -- and I certainly hope that as every year passes, I will build upon > that foundation knowledge and at some point I will undergo a slow, but > steady metamorphosis into a guru of sorts! But at this juncture with my > certs, I would certainly agree that I have just enough knowledge to be > dangerous! <smile> > > I would compare the cert study to obtaining academic and professional > degrees. Certainly upon graduation, grads are not experts in any area, but > they possess the fundamentals upon which to build. A lawyer, for example, > may indeed represent any survivors of a plane crash is his/her back yard on > the day he/she is admitted to the Bar, but law school graduation and passing > a Bar Examination DOES NOT indicate an expertise -- but it does indicate the > individual has the foundational knowledge and the potential to become an > expert at some point in the future. I would submit that the same goes for > physicians, accountants, architects, etc. > > I think that the real problem is how these certs. have been marketed. > Instead of promising IMMEDIATE big bucks, the certs, should be an entry > ticket into this career. Individuals who possess these certs should be > respected for the time, effort and interest they have shown in studying for > and obtaining a cert. But whether they are PAPER CERTS is truly a > mischaracterization. As I put forth above, every academic or professional > degree is indeed initially a paper cert -- but with potential. IT folks who > obtain these certs by and large have the potential to succeed. Just as > there are bright, average and incompetent lawyers, doctors and others, the > same would hold true in our field. Some individuals in inately intuitive, > without certs, and others -- the majority -- will become the average IT > Joe/Jane who work day-to-day in this field. Certainly there will always be > the small numbers who are totally incompetent. But it is not because the > certs are merely paper. > > That's my 2 cents. > > Greg Macaulay, CCNP, CCDP, MCSE > Attorney/Law Professor (Retired) > Lifetime member of AARP > Oldest CCNP/CCDP in existence > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > The.Rock > Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 12:33 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock > > > oh yeah one more thing...In case you forgot, certs don't prove anything > you really are an idiot if you think they "prove " something). The only > prove your ability to regurgitate info that you supposedly learned. Having > the know how, and knowing how to use are two different things. Lets say your > 8 years old and I give you a bunch of craftsman tools, does that mean you > certainly can't handle responsibility if your a "victim". _________________________________ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
