I've been watching this thread, and I have a different view of the field
than Jason, so here it is, inline.
(Allen May - this one is worth $0.04 ;-)
-e-
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason J. Roysdon"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 5:27 PM
Subject: Re: Certification Ego! (was Failed CCDA) [7:1929]
> I won't argue that it's always wise to follow what other people did, but I
> will make a few points.
>
> First is that unless you know at least a very good entry-level knowledge
of
> networking beyond the Cisco product line, you're not very useful. A CCIE
> who has never touched NT or Unix, bah, I don't see a huge value.
>
It's great to be well-rounded. I've never really touched an NT Server and
barely touched Unix, but I'm greatly valued by my company and their
customers. And my only certification is CCNA, not CCIE. (No MC or CN
certifications for me) So does this mean, in your context, that I don't
know what I'm talking about, or that I don't have a "huge value"? When NT
or other OS operation issues come up, I get help from those who are
competant in those areas. From an enterprise networking perspective, I
understand a lot about infrastructure, multi-vendor networking, and security
issues, and (probably most importantly), how to isolate a problems from a
host versus infrastructure perspective. I VERY rarely have to guess that a
server or a network is malfunctioning - I can pin it down. And if it is a
server, I'll give my best to help solve the server problem, but I'm no
expert in that arena. I'm an internetworking engineer, and I get a lot of
help from server engineers. Very little "Lone Ranger" stuff for me - I
don't even know what I don't know most of the time as it pertains to
servers.
Although I'd like to know more about NT, I'm not a server guy and never
intended to be one. Operation of the Microsoft stack and the specific
application is about as deep as I've ever needed to go, and a little bit of
knowledge about the MS DHCP server operation has proved to be useful. I can
steer myself around a Unix system but I need help from those sysadmins who
are specifically knowledgeable with how to configure those machines.
Ask the customers of Cisco's TAC as they describe their routing or bridging
problem, or how a particular protocol is misbehaving and bring their network
down, to the as the CCIE without NT or Unix experience on the other end of
the phone that that CCIE does not have a huge value.
Just a thought on your generalization and opinion: I've worked with CCIE's
who have great server experience and are more server-centric (MCSE/CNE) but
are actually low-quality internetworking engineers when it comes to large
enterprise routing and switching. I've also worked with CCIE's who (like
me) have little or no knowledge of the internals of NT or Unix but have
incredible talents as remote access engineers and really know how to groom
bandwidth to its fullest potential, or know how to engineer a great
multi-service network.
> I guess it varies on what you're doing and wanting to do, but for me, 70%
of
> my time is spent helping a customer figure out what in the world they need
> me to do with the routers. I had a customer today that was going to
deploy
> a DHCP server on each subnet because they didn't understand any other way
to
> do it. If I didn't know NetWare DHCP and NT DHCP servers, I wouldn't have
> been able to help them today beyond just saying "configure you DHCP server
> for scopes for those subnets." Yes, I know how to do the "ip
> helper-address," but unless they can configure their DHCP servers, that
> knowledge doesn't do much. As it is, I spent 15 minutes explaining how
the
> whole thing would work, and then the rest of the day configuring scopes
and
> then finally implementing "ip helper-address" on all the necessary
> interfaces.
>
And 70% of my time is spent designing robust networks for customers who
aren't sure of their requirements or of their budget. So I COULD generalize
that unless you have an engineering or business degree, you don't have a
huge value as a CCIE.
But since YOU'RE so well-rounded, you can tell them how to configure their
DHCP server. Different model. I surround myself with people who can do
that stuff well rather than be the do-er at that level because I'm very
comfortable with my abilities and with what I DON'T know. If I were an
independent consultant, I'd probably take the same position, because server
setup is better left to people much more qualified and motivated than I am.
> So, I do think it's necessary to have a good foundation in various areas.
> No, you don't need a paper cert to have that experience, but if you're
going
> to learn it and can chase down certs, you might as well so that you've got
> proof to show customers who go bug-eyed at certs.
>
Foundation - yes. Certification - perhaps. That's why we're here (on this
list) - because we want that for ourselves.
If there are customers who would rather have certified personnel work on
their infrastructure, more power to them! Those customers often understand
what is involved in achieving the certification, but I've found that they
usually are just impressed by the hype surrounding (take your choice) the
acronyms of MCSE, MCSE+I, CCNA, CCNP, CCIE. That's the double-edged sword,
though, and the reason that I am concerned about our peers who obtain
certification without field experience by whatever means they can use to
pass (and we know that there are some in the field and a few on this list
who ignore the NDAs around the exams), and thus by their possible
incompetence cast a cloud over those folks who have either extensive
experience or have studied very hard to achieve certification. That is
where I see the devaluation. And then, there are the ones who feel that
it's the only way to achieve financial success - trading certification for
dollars, but that's a whole different subject.
> It's like that commercial (I think IBM does it), where two consulting guys
> are telling this high-up exec a huge list of things he should implement.
He
> listens (clueless, of course), and says, "Great, do it!" to which they
reply
> something like, "Oh, we don't do anything, we just give consulting as what
> you need to do."
>
> Tomorrow I will be explaining to a customer why they need to not permit
all
> DMZ traffic into their Internal LAN, and what changes they'll have to make
> on their servers, including, but not limited to, DNS and WINS. I don't
> think there is anything in Cisco's line that will test you on those
topics.
>
Check the security certification blueprint:
http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/625/ccie/certifications/security_qual_bluep
rint.html
You're right in regards to those topics, but I don't think that Cisco claims
that their certification is the end-all be-all. We internetworking
engineers run into all kinds of different protocols to handle every day, and
as time goes by, we learn how to deal with them (separately from the Cisco
agenda).
> I know for me, the CCIE is not the "ultimate," but it's pretty damn high
up
> there. I have doubts I'll go back and upgrade my MCSE to Win2k if I get
my
> CCIE and can avoid it. I guess my point is once you get to a certain
level,
> you're less likely to want to go back and do the things that would help
you
> more as they seem of a lesser value or skill set. I do know that I won't
be
> doing my CNE, but then I doubt those who don't have to deal with Novell on
a
> daily basis see it as useful these days.
>
> --
> Jason Roysdon, CCNP+Security/CCDP, MCSE, CNA, Network+, A+
> List email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Homepage: http://jason.artoo.net/
>
>
>
> ""Fred Danson"" wrote in message
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > One thing that I ALWAYS notice when asking someone else for advice is
that
> > they ALWAYS advise me to take the same path that they did. No matter how
> > dissimilar out situations are, I will always be advised to take the same
> > route that they took.
> >
> > For example, when I was finishing up with my CCNP certification, I asked
> for
> > advise from several other people who also were finishing their CCNP
> > certifications. A few of the people that I asked were MCSE's and they
all
> > told me to go for MCSE before CCIE. Their reasoning was that I wouldn't
be
> > able to understand the WAN unless I had a solid understanding of the
LAN.
> > Now I do think that there is some logic to this statement, but I
> definitely
> > did not think that it made sense to put CCIE on hold for 5-6 months just
> to
> > learn more about Microsoft.
> >
> > I think their real reasons for giving me such crappy advice is that
> they're
> > afraid to admit that they made a mistake. If they suddenly realized that
> > they wasted 7 months learning about Microsoft, would they be willing to
> > admit this? I really doubt it! They would tell me to do what they did so
> > they can boost their own egos! Or on the other hand, they wouldn't tell
me
> > not to do what they did because they would hurt theie egos.
> >
> > So now, instead of blindingly taking someone's advice, I take a
realistic
> > look at all of my options. Being only 20 years old, I was advised by
many
> > "experienced professionals" to give it a few years before attempting the
> > CCIE. Does it really take that long to learn all this stuff? I really
> don't
> > think so. There is an abundance of information out there, and all you
have
> > to do is put in the extra effort to learn it. Heck, I didn't even know
> what
> > a Router was until about 7 months ago, and I already have CCNA, CCDA,
> CCNP,
> > and CCIE written.
> >
> > My point here is, don't listen to anyone that isn't in the same
situation
> as
> > you! Take a realistic look at your options and go for it!
> >
> > Fred Danson
> >
> > P.S. - I have a problem with the statement "youth is a unique illnes
that
> > heals with time only". From what I hear, the older portion of the CCIE
> > candidates typically struggle with the time constraints on the CCIE Lab.
> To
> > my knowledge, cheese and wine are the things that improve with age. They
> may
> > have the wisdom, but you got the speed. Go for it!
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "Ruben Arias"
> > >Reply-To: "Ruben Arias"
> > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >Subject: Re: Failed CCDA [7:1865]
> > >Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:09:11 -0400
> > >
> > >we're not offended because of your age, we're scared to death...
> > >by the way, youth is a unique illnes that heals with time only.
> > >Ruben
> >
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