Hey, it's fine with me. IP has finally caught up to the 1984 features of
AppleTalk (dynamic addressing, service location protocol). ;-)
At 06:25 PM 5/2/01, Tom Lisa wrote:
>Chuck, you do like living dangerously, don't you?!! :)
>
>Prof. Tom Lisa, CCAI
>Community College of Southern Nevada
>Cisco Regional Networking Academy
>
>Chuck Larrieu wrote:
>
> > The other way to solve the problem would be to delete AppleTalk and use
> > native IP on your Mac's ;->
> >
> > ( can't wait for PO's response to this one! )
> >
> > chuck
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 1:39 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: Spanning Tree Protocol [7:2564]
> >
> > It took me 10 times to get the thing to allow me to create a new account
> > (each time, it would time out when I hit Continue, and when I'd go back
all
> > the form would be blank). Anyway, from the Knowledgebase at
> > http://www.apple.com/support/ it appears that portfast or tuning the
> > spanning tree learning->forwarding time down would solve the problem
>instead
> > of just disabling spanning tree. Also, it appears to not affect TCP/IP
> > services at all, only AppleTalk (which does it's little song-and-dance at
> > boot to get a unique address):
> >
> > http://www.info.apple.com/kbnum/n30922
> >
> > TITLE
> > Spanning Tree Protocol: AppleTalk Issues
> > Article ID: 30922
> > Created: 3/10/99
> > Modified:3/22/01
> >
> > TOPIC
> > When the Spanning Tree Protocol is enabled on an Ethernet bridge or
switch
> > port to which a Macintosh computer is directly connected the computer may
>be
> > unable to use AppleTalk services.
> >
> > Enable Fast Convergence
> >
> > Several switch manufacturers have extended the Spanning Tree Protocol to
> > allow the convergence time to be reduced. One of the enhancements usually
> > available is the ability to safely and quickly move the port from the
> > blocked state (listening and learning) to the forwarding state. For
>example,
> > if the bridge detects a single device attached to a port it can quickly
> > assume that no other bridges are attached to that port and move the port
to
> > the forwarding state almost immediately. Check the manufacturer's
> > documentation for specific information on how to configure this option
for
> > your switch. For example, Cisco has an option called 'portfast' that can
be
> > enabled on most of their switches. For additional information on this
> > feature, see: http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/473/12.html
> >
> > Tune the Forward Delay Timer
> >
> > The Forward Delay timer can be tuned down to the minimum value. This
value
> > can usually be tuned down to a few seconds, which would give the switch
> > enough time to move to the forwarding state before the address allocation
> > packets were sent by the computer. If you choose to use this solution you
> > must set these timers in the root bridge. The root bridge is the bridge
>that
> > transmits these timer settings to all other designated bridges. Although
>you
> > can set these timers on any bridge only the root bridge can effect the
> > overall environment.
> >
> > Products affected
> >
> > AppleTalk services
> > Macintosh computers ranging from the PowerBook 3400 to the latest Power
Mac
> > G4 computers.
> > Note: TCP/IP based services are not affected.
> >
> > Question: Why does this only affect later Macintosh computers?
> >
> > Answer: Later computers start up faster causing the packets used for
> > AppleTalk address assignment to be sent while the port is still in the
> > blocked state.
> >
> > Question: Is Apple planning to change the way AppleTalk addresses are
> > allocated to fix the problem?
> >
> > Answer: Apple has no plans to change the algorithms used for AppleTalk
> > address assignment.
> >
> > --
> > Jason Roysdon, CCNP+Security/CCDP, MCSE, CNA, Network+, A+
> > List email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Homepage: http://jason.artoo.net/
> >
> > ""Hire, Ejay"" wrote in message
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > There is an Apple knowledgebase article about this issue.
> > >
> > > It is Doc#30922.
> > >
> > > Ejay Hire
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 2:01 PM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: RE: Spanning Tree Protocol [7:2564]
> > >
> > >
> > > Believe it or not it's true! We did some test/research on it and we
had
> > to
> > > modify some of our login processes to allow the switch to go the STP
> > > process for login, it appeared we were requesting to quickly for the
> > switch.
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Priscilla Oppenheimer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 1:42 PM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Re: Spanning Tree Protocol [7:2564]
> > >
> > >
> > > If it really takes 15-30 seconds for a switch to forward even when
> > portfast
> > > is enabled, I can see why AppleTalk nodes would hate this. An AppleTalk
> > > node sends messages right away to make sure its own address is unique,
>and
> > > to find the nearest router, and verify the network number(s) and zone
> > > name(s) for its local network. If the switch isn't forwarding these
> > frames,
> > > the Mac will think it's on a non-routed single network, when it
probably
> > > isn't. Worst of all, it might end up with the same address as some
other
> > > AppleTalk device.
> > >
> > > However...... I find it hard to believe that even with portfast
enabled a
> > > switch takes 15-30 seconds to forward traffic. Is that really true?
> > >
> > > Priscilla
> > >
> > > At 01:22 AM 5/2/01, Jim Gillen wrote:
> > > >I have had plenty of experience with this problem when I updated a
token
> > > ring
> > > >network to a fully switched ethernet network.
> > > >
> > > >CISCO has a document on spanning tree and these types of problems.
> > > >
> > > >Enabling portfast still means that it takes 15-30sec for the port on a
> > > switch
> > > >to come up. If you workstation needs to attach to a server (as with
the
> > > >Novell
> > > >Client) by sending GetNearestServer (or the like packets) and it
needs a
> > > >reply
> > > >to attach during that 15 - 30 sec then it will fail to connect. There
>may
> > > be
> > > >other problems with the Mac's -???
> > > >
> > > >I would read the document on the CISCO site and then if that doesn't
>help
> > > let
> > > >us know what is the nature of the problem.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >>> "Jason Roysdon" 2/05/01 13:30:21 >>>
> > > >This message has been scanned by MAILSweeper.
> > > >************************************************************
> > > >
> > > >The customer claims that even with portfast enabled the Macs won't
> > function
> > > >due to Spanning tree. Has anyone else heard any such rumors about
this?
> > > My
> > > >guess, as you suggested, is that portfast would solve it, but
supposedly
> > it
> > > >was tried before disabling spanning tree.
> > > >
> > > >--
> > > >Jason Roysdon, CCNP+Security/CCDP, MCSE, CNA, Network+, A+
> > > >List email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > >Homepage: http://jason.artoo.net/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >""Leigh Anne Chisholm"" wrote in message
> > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > > It's a symptom of the problem I wrote about earlier in this thread.
> > > When
> > > >a
> > > > > MAC becomes active on the network, the computer isn't able to
> > > communicate
> > > >for
> > > > > the first 50 seconds the port detects the end-system is active.
The
> > > port
> > > > > begins in blocking mode, then transitions to listening, then
>learning.
> > > > > Finally, once STP determines that a looped topology hasn't
occurred,
> > the
> > > >port
> > > > > is set to forwarding mode. This creates havoc with any end-system
> > that
> > > > > expects to receive over-the-network information within the first 50
> > > >seconds.
> > > > > IP, IPX, AppleTalk - all face the same issue.
> > > > >
> > > > > The simple solution isn't to kill Spanning Tree on all switches -
> > that's
> > > >the
> > > > > "I don't understand the problem so I'll do whatever works and
create
>a
> > > >bigger
> > > > > problem" solution. The real solution is to enable portfast on all
> > > switch
> > > > > ports that have end-systems directly connected. The caveat to this
>is
> > > to
> > > > > ensure none of the end-systems are capable as acting as a bridge,
> > > >forwarding
> > > > > packets between LAN segments. Enabling portfast essentially
disables
> > > > > Spanning
> > > > > Tree on a port - and Spanning Tree is used to ensure a loop-free
> > > >environment.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -- Leigh Anne
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > > > > Sent: April 30, 2001 7:15 PM
> > > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Spanning Tree Protocol [7:2564]
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Oh, speaking of AppleTalk. We've got a customer (not mine, but
one
> > of
> > > >the
> > > > > > engineers working the account bounced this off me): They claim
> > their
> > > >new
> > > > > > Macs can't access the network if Spanning Tree is enabled.
> > Supposedly
> > > >this
> > > > > > has been verified by Apple and TAC (but we've never had a
customer
> > lie
> > > >to
> > > > > > us, so that must be gospel, right. Heh, not). I don't know what
> > > >exactly
> > > > > > the details are, but basically it just doesn't function. The
>simple
> > > > > > solution is to kill spanning-tree on all the switches, but this
is
> > at
> > > a
> > > > > > number of public schools, and I can't wait to hear about a kid
> > > bringing
> > > >in
> > > > > > his Linksys 8 port 10/100 switch and melting their network.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Anyone else hear such rumors?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Jason Roysdon, CCNP+Security/CCDP, MCSE, CNA, Network+, A+
> > > > > > List email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > > > Homepage: http://jason.artoo.net/
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ""Priscilla Oppenheimer"" wrote in message
> > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > > > > At 11:08 AM 4/30/01, Phil Barker wrote:
> > > > > > > >Strongly in favour,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >A similar problem occurs in an IPX environment.
> > > > > > > >Make sure all Servers/Clients are 'portfast' and
> > > > > > > >switch/switch disable 'portfast'.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A similar problem happens with AppleTalk too. That's what we
get
> > for
> > > > > > > expecting switches to replace hubs in a topology. ;-) They were
> > > >designed
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > bridges and to talk to other bridges. Despite switches being
the
> > > > > > > new-fangled thing (well, sort of new), a lot of their
> > functionality
> > > is
> > > > > > > vintage 1980s.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Priscilla
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Regards,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Phil.
> > > > > > > >--- John Gotti wrote: > Hey
> > > > > > > >all...we are having a problem where workstations
> > > > > > > > > sporatically will not
> > > > > > > > > be able to obtain an IP address from our DHCP
> > > > > > > > > server. After about 4 minutes,
> > > > > > > > > you can perform a manual renew from WINIPCFG and you
> > > > > > > > > get your IP address.
> > > > > > > > > This has baffled me for quite some time and I have
> > > > > > > > > recently been told it is
> > > > > > > > > our Cisco 2924 Switch to blame. The story I was told
> > > > > > > > > is below. I welcome any
> > > > > > > > > comments for or against this opinion. Thank you for
> > > > > > > > > your time.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "It appears the problem is connected to the
> > > > > > > > > spanning tree algorithm used
> > > > > > > > > by the CISCO switches. By default, ports on the
> > > > > > > > > switch block as they are
> > > > > > > > > initialised; during this phase the port is in its
> > > > > > > > > spanning tree algorithm
> > > > > > > > > learning and listening state - it is not
> > > > > > > > > forwarding. This is specifically
> > > > > > > > > aimed at ports that will be used to connect to other
> > > > > > > > > switches/routers in a
> > > > > > > > > stack. After a default time (4 mins?) they switch to
> > > > > > > > > the standard forwarding
> > > > > > > > > mode and everything seems normal, the problem is
> > > > > > > > > that you have missed all
> > > > > > > > > the important DHCP broadcast and acknowledgment from
> > > > > > > > > client to DHCP server
> > > > > > > > > during this period.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You can change this default state by changing the
> > > > > > > > > PORT-FAST setting on
> > > > > > > > > each port. The port is then immediately in the
> > > > > > > > > FORWARDING mode as it is
> > > > > > > > > initialised. By default this setting is DISABLED,
> > > > > > > > > I have ENABLED all
> > > > > > > > > ports except the ports doing the linking to other
> > > > > > > > > switches"
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> >_________________________________________________________________
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> > > > > > > ________________________
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Priscilla Oppenheimer
> > > > > > > http://www.priscilla.com
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