Unfortunately turning off appletalk isn;t as easy as it sounds. It really
depends on the environment.
Mac's can use IP for filesharing, however Appletalk needs to be enabled for
this to work. There are printing issues that arise from disabling appletalk
as well.
tim
I hear and I forget
I see and I believe
I do and I understand
-Confucius
Tim Medley - CCNA, CCDA
VoIP Engineer
704-943-3615 - Phone
704-525-9119 - Fax
877-6-iReady - Helpdesk
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
Chuck Larrieu
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 4:59 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Spanning Tree Protocol [7:2564]
The other way to solve the problem would be to delete AppleTalk and use
native IP on your Mac's ;->
( can't wait for PO's response to this one! )
chuck
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 1:39 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Spanning Tree Protocol [7:2564]
It took me 10 times to get the thing to allow me to create a new account
(each time, it would time out when I hit Continue, and when I'd go back all
the form would be blank). Anyway, from the Knowledgebase at
http://www.apple.com/support/ it appears that portfast or tuning the
spanning tree learning->forwarding time down would solve the problem instead
of just disabling spanning tree. Also, it appears to not affect TCP/IP
services at all, only AppleTalk (which does it's little song-and-dance at
boot to get a unique address):
http://www.info.apple.com/kbnum/n30922
TITLE
Spanning Tree Protocol: AppleTalk Issues
Article ID: 30922
Created: 3/10/99
Modified:3/22/01
TOPIC
When the Spanning Tree Protocol is enabled on an Ethernet bridge or switch
port to which a Macintosh computer is directly connected the computer may be
unable to use AppleTalk services.
Enable Fast Convergence
Several switch manufacturers have extended the Spanning Tree Protocol to
allow the convergence time to be reduced. One of the enhancements usually
available is the ability to safely and quickly move the port from the
blocked state (listening and learning) to the forwarding state. For example,
if the bridge detects a single device attached to a port it can quickly
assume that no other bridges are attached to that port and move the port to
the forwarding state almost immediately. Check the manufacturer's
documentation for specific information on how to configure this option for
your switch. For example, Cisco has an option called 'portfast' that can be
enabled on most of their switches. For additional information on this
feature, see: http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/473/12.html
Tune the Forward Delay Timer
The Forward Delay timer can be tuned down to the minimum value. This value
can usually be tuned down to a few seconds, which would give the switch
enough time to move to the forwarding state before the address allocation
packets were sent by the computer. If you choose to use this solution you
must set these timers in the root bridge. The root bridge is the bridge that
transmits these timer settings to all other designated bridges. Although you
can set these timers on any bridge only the root bridge can effect the
overall environment.
Products affected
AppleTalk services
Macintosh computers ranging from the PowerBook 3400 to the latest Power Mac
G4 computers.
Note: TCP/IP based services are not affected.
Question: Why does this only affect later Macintosh computers?
Answer: Later computers start up faster causing the packets used for
AppleTalk address assignment to be sent while the port is still in the
blocked state.
Question: Is Apple planning to change the way AppleTalk addresses are
allocated to fix the problem?
Answer: Apple has no plans to change the algorithms used for AppleTalk
address assignment.
--
Jason Roysdon, CCNP+Security/CCDP, MCSE, CNA, Network+, A+
List email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Homepage: http://jason.artoo.net/
""Hire, Ejay"" wrote in message
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> There is an Apple knowledgebase article about this issue.
>
> It is Doc#30922.
>
> Ejay Hire
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 2:01 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: Spanning Tree Protocol [7:2564]
>
>
> Believe it or not it's true! We did some test/research on it and we had
to
> modify some of our login processes to allow the switch to go the STP
> process for login, it appeared we were requesting to quickly for the
switch.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Priscilla Oppenheimer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 1:42 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Spanning Tree Protocol [7:2564]
>
>
> If it really takes 15-30 seconds for a switch to forward even when
portfast
> is enabled, I can see why AppleTalk nodes would hate this. An AppleTalk
> node sends messages right away to make sure its own address is unique, and
> to find the nearest router, and verify the network number(s) and zone
> name(s) for its local network. If the switch isn't forwarding these
frames,
> the Mac will think it's on a non-routed single network, when it probably
> isn't. Worst of all, it might end up with the same address as some other
> AppleTalk device.
>
> However...... I find it hard to believe that even with portfast enabled a
> switch takes 15-30 seconds to forward traffic. Is that really true?
>
> Priscilla
>
> At 01:22 AM 5/2/01, Jim Gillen wrote:
> >I have had plenty of experience with this problem when I updated a token
> ring
> >network to a fully switched ethernet network.
> >
> >CISCO has a document on spanning tree and these types of problems.
> >
> >Enabling portfast still means that it takes 15-30sec for the port on a
> switch
> >to come up. If you workstation needs to attach to a server (as with the
> >Novell
> >Client) by sending GetNearestServer (or the like packets) and it needs a
> >reply
> >to attach during that 15 - 30 sec then it will fail to connect. There may
> be
> >other problems with the Mac's -???
> >
> >I would read the document on the CISCO site and then if that doesn't help
> let
> >us know what is the nature of the problem.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >>> "Jason Roysdon" 2/05/01 13:30:21 >>>
> >This message has been scanned by MAILSweeper.
> >************************************************************
> >
> >The customer claims that even with portfast enabled the Macs won't
function
> >due to Spanning tree. Has anyone else heard any such rumors about this?
> My
> >guess, as you suggested, is that portfast would solve it, but supposedly
it
> >was tried before disabling spanning tree.
> >
> >--
> >Jason Roysdon, CCNP+Security/CCDP, MCSE, CNA, Network+, A+
> >List email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Homepage: http://jason.artoo.net/
> >
> >
> >
> >""Leigh Anne Chisholm"" wrote in message
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > It's a symptom of the problem I wrote about earlier in this thread.
> When
> >a
> > > MAC becomes active on the network, the computer isn't able to
> communicate
> >for
> > > the first 50 seconds the port detects the end-system is active. The
> port
> > > begins in blocking mode, then transitions to listening, then learning.
> > > Finally, once STP determines that a looped topology hasn't occurred,
the
> >port
> > > is set to forwarding mode. This creates havoc with any end-system
that
> > > expects to receive over-the-network information within the first 50
> >seconds.
> > > IP, IPX, AppleTalk - all face the same issue.
> > >
> > > The simple solution isn't to kill Spanning Tree on all switches -
that's
> >the
> > > "I don't understand the problem so I'll do whatever works and create a
> >bigger
> > > problem" solution. The real solution is to enable portfast on all
> switch
> > > ports that have end-systems directly connected. The caveat to this is
> to
> > > ensure none of the end-systems are capable as acting as a bridge,
> >forwarding
> > > packets between LAN segments. Enabling portfast essentially disables
> > > Spanning
> > > Tree on a port - and Spanning Tree is used to ensure a loop-free
> >environment.
> > >
> > >
> > > -- Leigh Anne
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > > Sent: April 30, 2001 7:15 PM
> > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Subject: Re: Spanning Tree Protocol [7:2564]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Oh, speaking of AppleTalk. We've got a customer (not mine, but one
of
> >the
> > > > engineers working the account bounced this off me): They claim
their
> >new
> > > > Macs can't access the network if Spanning Tree is enabled.
Supposedly
> >this
> > > > has been verified by Apple and TAC (but we've never had a customer
lie
> >to
> > > > us, so that must be gospel, right. Heh, not). I don't know what
> >exactly
> > > > the details are, but basically it just doesn't function. The simple
> > > > solution is to kill spanning-tree on all the switches, but this is
at
> a
> > > > number of public schools, and I can't wait to hear about a kid
> bringing
> >in
> > > > his Linksys 8 port 10/100 switch and melting their network.
> > > >
> > > > Anyone else hear such rumors?
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Jason Roysdon, CCNP+Security/CCDP, MCSE, CNA, Network+, A+
> > > > List email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Homepage: http://jason.artoo.net/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ""Priscilla Oppenheimer"" wrote in message
> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > > At 11:08 AM 4/30/01, Phil Barker wrote:
> > > > > >Strongly in favour,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >A similar problem occurs in an IPX environment.
> > > > > >Make sure all Servers/Clients are 'portfast' and
> > > > > >switch/switch disable 'portfast'.
> > > > >
> > > > > A similar problem happens with AppleTalk too. That's what we get
for
> > > > > expecting switches to replace hubs in a topology. ;-) They were
> >designed
> > > > as
> > > > > bridges and to talk to other bridges. Despite switches being the
> > > > > new-fangled thing (well, sort of new), a lot of their
functionality
> is
> > > > > vintage 1980s.
> > > > >
> > > > > Priscilla
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >Regards,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Phil.
> > > > > >--- John Gotti wrote: > Hey
> > > > > >all...we are having a problem where workstations
> > > > > > > sporatically will not
> > > > > > > be able to obtain an IP address from our DHCP
> > > > > > > server. After about 4 minutes,
> > > > > > > you can perform a manual renew from WINIPCFG and you
> > > > > > > get your IP address.
> > > > > > > This has baffled me for quite some time and I have
> > > > > > > recently been told it is
> > > > > > > our Cisco 2924 Switch to blame. The story I was told
> > > > > > > is below. I welcome any
> > > > > > > comments for or against this opinion. Thank you for
> > > > > > > your time.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "It appears the problem is connected to the
> > > > > > > spanning tree algorithm used
> > > > > > > by the CISCO switches. By default, ports on the
> > > > > > > switch block as they are
> > > > > > > initialised; during this phase the port is in its
> > > > > > > spanning tree algorithm
> > > > > > > learning and listening state - it is not
> > > > > > > forwarding. This is specifically
> > > > > > > aimed at ports that will be used to connect to other
> > > > > > > switches/routers in a
> > > > > > > stack. After a default time (4 mins?) they switch to
> > > > > > > the standard forwarding
> > > > > > > mode and everything seems normal, the problem is
> > > > > > > that you have missed all
> > > > > > > the important DHCP broadcast and acknowledgment from
> > > > > > > client to DHCP server
> > > > > > > during this period.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You can change this default state by changing the
> > > > > > > PORT-FAST setting on
> > > > > > > each port. The port is then immediately in the
> > > > > > > FORWARDING mode as it is
> > > > > > > initialised. By default this setting is DISABLED,
> > > > > > > I have ENABLED all
> > > > > > > ports except the ports doing the linking to other
> > > > > > > switches"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >_________________________________________________________________
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> > > > > ________________________
> > > > >
> > > > > Priscilla Oppenheimer
> > > > > http://www.priscilla.com
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