Nrf, I always look forward to hearing your view. Your points are valid, and I very much agree to your acknowledgement of the merging worlds of network and systems engineering. As far as personnel management, though, my first rule is to make decisions in the best interest of the company while ensuring the staff is challenged and fulfilled. If Adrian's staff was not challenged due to the diminished role of Routing and Switching, I don't believe his first course of action should have been to throw them away. If they were contractors to whom the company was not obligated to train outside the scope of the original project, then concessions could have been made to renegotiate the rate in return for realigned objectives. If they weren't contractors, this is an example of a dangerous trend in all business environments. There are ways around throwing an employee on the street. I don't care WHAT kind of budget you have to work with. Sometimes cuts can't be avoided regardless of the belt tightening that a department may do, but this case does not seem to be one where an executive decision was made to eliminate X amount of headcount. This list has provided countless posts of industry aces taking massive pay cuts to put food on the table. It may be my weakness to not have the "killer instinct" that Adrian has displayed, but I'd rather offer any position I could as a Unix or security admin at a lowered rate, than to take away someone's entire livelihood.
Bill Creighton CCNP Senior System Engineer Motorola iDEN CNRC Packet Data / MPS 1301 E. Algonquin Road Schaumburg, IL 60196 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -----Original Message----- From: nrf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 12:23 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Hello (long response) [3:5788] I stated this before on the other thread, but I'll state it again. While I think that the way Adrian handled the situation was beyond the pale (and I think everybody here on this newsgroup knows that I ain't no wallflower), I have to say that I actually do agree somewhat with the gist of what he was saying. Let's face it - R/S skills are simply not as demanded as they were in the past, and if R/S people want to maintain their high salaries (or even keep their job), they better develop different skills. IT has always been an industry of flux, where skills that used to command high pay one day no longer do so the next day. Anybody who expects to keep a job but who can't/won't update their skills to whatever happens to be demanded by the marketplace at the time is playing a dangerous game indeed. But again, that's not so say that I condone Adrian's methods. ""Jesus Velazquez"" wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > Bill, I agree. These CCIE's are obviously certified as internetworking > experts (R/S) not security or unix admins...therefore I find it unfair > for Adrian to fire them based on what he wished they should be skilled > in. My question to Adrian is did he ever provide them the opportunity > to become well rounded in unix / security as well. If not, then shame > on him and that > displays poor leadership potential on his part. Perhaps he felt his > job could have been at risk if he is making more than any of the > ccie's he canned. I sure hope Adrian can perform the responsibilities > of the 4 ccie's. > Now that he dumped these ccie's I can imagine how big his christmas > bonus will be. > > The more I read about layoffs the sicker I get. This field is becoming more > cut throat then ever. As the cliche goes, "what goes around, comes > around" but with more velocity.... > > unbelievable- > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > Creighton Bill-BCREIGH1 > Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 5:03 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: Hello (long response) [3:5788] > > > Agreed. > Help you need maybe with grammar to be speaking about no skills others have. > > People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones - especially if, what > you say > is true, you are in a managerial role. I find it hard to believe that > you would have such little respect for others and still be able to successfully > lead others. > > I have a recommendation for your personal and professional growth. If > you wish to progress to managerial or executive level positions, you > must master > communication skills. Your opinions will be taken far more seriously > if you > can set personal assessments aside and not confuse your subject matter with > mechanical and grammatical errors. > > One final question. > What was the job description of these CCIE's you abruptly terminated? > I certainly hope you stated Unix administation or web server > management when they were hired. If you didn't, and then didn't give > them the opportunity to > learn the skills for which they were terminated, you will likely have legal > issues to contend with. On the other hand, if this was in their job > description, the interview process has failed you and your company > wasted quite a bit of money in the salaries and benefits paid in > hiring these engineers. I have, unfortunately, seen both of these > scenarios first-hand. > > I respect your technical prowess, I wish you the best in your > managerial pursuits, but most of all I sympathize for the 4 CCIE's > that are now out of > work. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian T. Albert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 3:38 PM > To: adrian jones; elping; Louis Young; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: Chuck Church > Subject: RE: Hello (long response) > > > Sounds like your boss should be doing the house cleaning and not you. > Instead of firing 4 CCIEs, maybe because your God's gift to networking > you should mentor, train, and teach instead of strut around with your > nose up in > the air. > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > adrian jones > Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 3:17 PM > To: elping; Louis Young; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: Chuck Church; Security > Subject: Re: Hello (long response) > > > Elping, > Please do NOT make any statements regarding CheckPoint Firewall > without knowing all the facts. I've been working with both Checkpoint > and Pix firewalls. I even build a few "franken" pix firewalls so that > I can learn as much as I can about Cisco Pix firewalls. The "franken" > pix firewall actually help me landed my current job that pays > 100k/year. Both CheckPoint > and Pix firewalls have its strength and weaknesses. I agree that > Cisco TAC > is much superior than CheckPoint support. The "no text configuration" > that you refer to in CheckPoint, you must be refered to running > CheckPoint on Winblows platforms. NEVER RUN FIREWALL ON A GENERAL > PURPOSE OPERATING SYSTEM. If you worry about cost, check out > CheckPoint SecurePlatform. If you are "unix" literate, does the term > "tcpdump" mean anything to you? That's how you troubleshoot my friend. > Now if you are talking about cost, Cisco Pix will beat CheckPoint by a > long shot in term of performance for your $. However, for a > small/medium business, Checkpoint does come with a lot of features > such as URL filtering (native), http load balancing, etc which Pix > doesn't have (without 3rd party products). For enterprise > environment, CheckPoint does come with ClusterXL (aka, load-sharing or > Active/Active Firewall), which again, Pix doesn't support. Last but > not least, CheckPoint does have a very nice Management piece called "provider-1" > that Cisco Pix doesn't have. I do have to say that the price for CP products > is totally "outrageous"; however, CP is a good product. In terms of hardware > product, you can run CheckPoint on Nokia Platforms which is very > stable and > proven product. New version of Nokia firewalls do come with Flash > instead of hard-drive so that the reliability is very high. Nokia is > a big partner > with CP. You can get CP support if you purchase Nokia firewalls from Nokia. > Nokia TAC is just as good as Cisco TAC. I've completed my first week > at my new job as a Security Engineer and I am amazed at the # of Cisco > Certified folks at my company that are completely incompetent and > downright clueless at what they can do. We are a consulting company > and being in the consulting business, you are forced to know pretty > much about everything. I > have a couple of CCIEs in the office came to me and ask me how to > restart sendmail and postfix (we are a linux shop) in linux. Another > CCIE asked me > how to use "nmap" in unix. The last one is down right funny, one CCIE asked > how to start Apache in Solaris. It just seems to me like R&S are all > they know and nothing else. We also do R&S here but at these times, > demands for those have not been that great. Therefore, we have to > branch into other things such as Security (PIX, CheckPoint, Wireless, > IDS, etc...) I brought these issues to my boss attention last > wednesday and on thursay he > > ordered me to 'clean' house. The first thing I did was to send "pink" slips > to all > > 4 CCIEs in the group and told them that they are fired because they > don't know > > anything other than R&S. They were making $130k/year and sucking > almost all > of > > our budget. > > My advice to everyone out there is to keeping learning other things in > addition to > > the R&S. The market for CCIEs is not as good as it used to be. You better > know > > other things especially Unix and Firewalls than just merely R&S. > There will > be lot > > of good peopel competing for the same jobs and the only way you can > show the > > potential employers that you are better than the other guy is by > showing them that > > you know other things not just R&S. > > Just my .02c. > > Adrian > > > > elping wrote: > I work with the checpoint firewall ...and let me tell you they are gui based > and very easy to coinfigure...but do they suck.....ther is no text > configuration . the debugging sucks...and most of the times i have > called checpoint for support ..i have done everything by the > book...and they suggest reboot ....sucks .. > > 98 perfecnt of the time they suggest to stop the engine and restart it > .. anyways i think anything that has a hardrive sucks ... > > > i predict they (checkpoint) will die soon if they do not come out with > a hardware product....... > > > > Louis Young wrote: > > > if the topic of security comes,not actually only one vendor of cisco > systems,there are many other options. > > netscreen,checkpoint,etc. > > why stick with cisco,just coz it is stronger?I don't think so :) > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Chuck Church" > > To: "Louis Young" ; "Security" > > Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 11:22 PM > > Subject: Re: Hello > > > > > Couple reasons actually. I've worked with PIXs and VPN in the > > > past, and would like to really become stronger in the technology, > > > especially the > IDS > > > and AAA stuff. The R&S hasn't been the 'pot of gold' that it once > > > was, > so > > > I'm still under-employed (only working part time) currently. So > > > between wanting to further my skills and having the available time > > > to do it, > here I > > > am! > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Chuck Church > > > CCIE #8776, MCNE, MCSE > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Louis Young" > > > To: "Chuck Church" ; "Security" > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 9:53 AM > > > Subject: Re: Hello > > > > > > > > > > Hi,having seen your active behavior in R/S list for a long time > > > > :) why think about security? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Louis > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Chuck Church" > > > > To: "Security" > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 12:17 PM > > > > Subject: Hello > > > > > > > > > > > > > All, > > > > > > > > > > I just thought I'd introduce myself. I'm thinking pretty hard > > > > > about going for the CCIE Security. My current CCIE is R&S. > > > > > Haven't seen > any > > > > > messages since I joined yesterday, just wondering if there's > > > > > many > people > > > on > > > > > this list. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Church > > > > > CCIE #8776, MCNE, MCSE > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=58902&t=5788 -------------------------------------------------- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
