On 15 Oct 2011, at 23:14, Rich Hickey wrote: > Your last bit confuses me. You certainly are making something > wonderful in, and for, Clojure with Overtone. I don't know where I > said or implied anything about the discussions being only about making > tools or solving hard problems.
My apologies - I wasn't advocating that you had said or implied that the discussions only be about making tools or solving hard problems. > In any case, there is no effort to suppress or eradicate underfoot. I > am not going to enumerate what is ok and what is not, except insofar > as to say respect and consideration are ok, and a lack of them is not. > > Rich > > > On Oct 15, 4:57 pm, Sam Aaron <samaa...@gmail.com> wrote: >> Devlin, >> >> I totally agree with you :-) I read the core of the post in a similar >> fashion and I respect and agree with the general notion. However, my >> perception of the tone of the message was that it felt slightly >> 'anti-opinion' whereas I believe that constructive positive opinion has an >> extremely important part to play in nurturing a progressive community. >> Hopefully I just misinterpreted it. >> >> I believe that there's a big difference between not ruling out positive >> opinion by scoping the guidelines to "most messages" and explicitly >> encouraging it. >> >> One of the main reasons why I've been hacking mad crazy on Overtone is not >> for any specific technical goal or even to make something that necessarily >> contributes to the making of other things. I'm also not in the business of >> only solving "hard" problems. The main reason I've been doing what I do is >> purely to make people other smile and feel good because they can do things >> that they perhaps couldn't before - namely be and feel musical. I therefore >> always want to hear the Clojure community's opinion on this because it >> energises me to continue. >> >> Sam >> >> ---http://sam.aaron.name >> >> On 15 Oct 2011, at 21:06, Devin Walters wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> Aaron, I can't speak for Rich but I don't think I read the original post >>> the same way you did. >> >>> I think the big point being made (and one I agree with) is that we should >>> try, to the best of our ability, to keep our focus on the constructive. >>> Diatribes and/or opinion pieces are less constructive, in general. >> >>> I will also point out Rich wrote: "*Most* messages should have one of these >>> forms:" and "This is just a reminder." I don't see this as any sort of >>> implicit threat to ban opposing sides. >> >>> My reading: Let's keep things constructive, productive, thoughtful, and >>> objective. Let's try to avoid discussions about what ought to happen and >>> focus more on doing it. >> >>> -- >>> Devin >> >>> On Saturday, October 15, 2011 at 2:34 PM, Sam Aaron wrote: >> >>>> While I understand and respect the importance of focussing discussions to >>>> the making of things, surely there is more to a community communication >>>> substrate than this sole category of topic. >> >>>> Do these guidelines, therefore, attempt preclude threads such as the >>>> discussion on the possible impact of new technologies (i.e. Dart), >>>> constructive discussions on development practices (i.e. REPL-driven-dev vs >>>> TDD), links to newly discovered external resources (i.e. new >>>> presentations/slidedecks) and general positive opinion "Wow, that was >>>> cool! Thanks so much for making that :-)" >> >>>> Perhaps much of this discussion would be better moved to the comments of >>>> external blogs? Still, it feels to me that the ability to constructively >>>> express and communicate *positive* opinion is a powerful source of energy >>>> which can cultivate enthusiasm and a general positive attitude within any >>>> community. I feel that because we're a technical community means we should >>>> be spending more care and effort fostering these social elements rather >>>> than trying to suppress/eradicate them. >> >>>> Sam >> >>>> --- >>>> http://sam.aaron.name >> >>>> On 15 Oct 2011, at 19:02, Rich Hickey wrote: >> >>>>> This is just a reminder. While in general our communication here is very >>>>> good, occasionally it goes astray. >> >>>>> These mailing lists are run by, and for, people who make things. Most >>>>> messages should have one of these forms: >> >>>>> I made something - here is my contribution >>>>> I am trying to use the thing someone made and am having trouble, please >>>>> help. >>>>> I can help you with that thing someone made. >>>>> I am trying to make something and am having trouble, please help. >>>>> I can help you make something. >> >>>>> They are not the place for opinion pieces and diatribes. >> >>>>> They are not the place for advocacy about what 'ought' to be made. If you >>>>> think something ought to be made, then make it. Otherwise, respect others >>>>> peoples' right to choose what they do with their time. >> >>>>> Occasionally, there may be disagreements about how something has been, or >>>>> will be, made. These disagreements should take the form of technical >>>>> arguments. To make a technical argument that gets (and gives!) respect: >> >>>>> Keep it short >>>>> Stick to the facts >>>>> Use logic >>>>> Leave people out of it >>>>> Avoid rhetorical devices: >>>>> Superfluous or opinion-laden adjectives >>>>> Claims to speak for the community, or that everyone agrees with you. >>>>> Threats of what will happen unless things go your way >>>>> Any flavor of 'the sky is falling' >> >>>>> If you are not the one making something, you should restrict your input >>>>> to very short technical arguments supporting your position. If someone >>>>> has already made your point, just +1 it. >> >>>>> Please keep your posts short. >> >>>>> Ignoring these guidelines fails to respect the time and effort of people >>>>> who make things, which you should care about if you intend to be one. >> >>>>> Thanks, >> >>>>> Rich >> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Clojure" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com >>>>> (mailto:clojure@googlegroups.com) >>>>> Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with >>>>> your first post. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>>> (mailto:clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com) >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en >> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Clojure" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com >>>> (mailto:clojure@googlegroups.com) >>>> Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with >>>> your first post. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>> (mailto:clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com) >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en >> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Clojure" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com >>> Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with >>> your first post. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your > first post. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. 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