There is syntax to ns. It's not syntax in the traditional way, but it's essentially the same thing. And Greg is right that it often causes confusion.
I +1 the second version. The first version's :as-class was too messy. It could very easily be made backwards-compliant as well. All we have to do is check if the first item in the list/vec is a keyword. If it is, then it's the old-style ns. If not, it's the new. Jonathan On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 8:14 PM, Timothy Baldridge <tbaldri...@gmail.com>wrote: > There's no syntax to ns, ns simply assumes that everything after the > symbol/doc is in the form (function-to-execute & args). The only special > case is gen-class, and even that is fixed up to look like everything else. > Why invent special syntax where none exists now? > > I think the issue is more around people not understanding the difference > (and problems behind) refer vs import instead of an actual problem with the > require macro. > > On that subject when last discussed, it was mentioned that Clojure doesn't > have a import * method because it's basically impossible to implement. > > To quote Rich: "Java packages are not enumerable. The only way to do so > is to walk the classpath/jars etc. I don't think import * is a good idea, > as it brings more into a namespace than you are going to use, making Clojure's > namespace enumeration, e.g. ns-imports, that much less useful. " > > > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/clojure/import$20wildcard/clojure/-gCg_0wmT5o/LnxDCU6W538J > > Timothy > > > On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Greg <g...@kinostudios.com> wrote: > >> I don't really understand why we would need to simplify something that is >> already so simple. >> >> >> Because it's not simple to many people. It's one of the main things >> people use as an example when discussing complexity in clojure. >> >> There are many threads and blog posts where people explain why they >> consider the "ns" declaration to be complicated. >> >> >> That being said, if you really want your syntax above, nothing is >> stopping you from using your own import function >> >> >> When I have time, I might do something like that, but not the way you >> illustrated, because that's unnecessarily complicated in my view. >> >> I might either add a hook to to 'ns', or if that's not possible, >> overwrite it to support both syntaxes, or create a different name, like >> "include". >> >> Then it would be this: >> >> (include two.namespace >> >> [clojure :refer-all [core :except (ancestors printf)]] >> [core :refer-all [matrix math bs]] >> [ring.adapter.jetty :refer (run-jetty)] >> [ring.middleware.file :refer (wrap-file)] >> [ring.middleware.file-info :refer (wrap-file-info)] >> [ring.middleware.stacktrace :refer (wrap-stacktrace)] >> [ring.util.response :refer (file-response)] >> [one :refer [reload middleware]] >> >> [net.cgrand :refer [enlive-html :as html]] >> [org.apache.maven.artifact.resolver :refer ArtifactResolver] >> [java.io :refer File]) >> >> >> Instead of: >> >> >> (ns one.fresh-server >> (:refer-clojure :exclude [ancestors printf]) >> (:use core.matrix >> [ring.adapter.jetty :only (run-jetty)] >> [ring.middleware.file :only (wrap-file)] >> [ring.middleware.file-info :only (wrap-file-info)] >> [ring.middleware.stacktrace :only (wrap-stacktrace)] >> [ring.util.response :only (file-response)]) >> (:require [one.reload :as reload] >> [one.middleware :as middleware] >> [net.cgrand.enlive-html :as html]) >> (:import (org.apache.maven.artifact.resolver ArtifactResolver) >> (java.io File)))) >> >> >> - Greg >> >> -- >> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing >> with the NSA. >> >> On Aug 5, 2013, at 1:46 PM, Timothy Baldridge <tbaldri...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> I don't really understand why we would need to simplify something that is >> already so simple. Teach people the following: >> >> (ns my-namespace >> ...calls to import fns...) >> >> Where import functions can be either :require or :import: >> >> (:import [clojure.lang Number AFn]) ;; use for Java imports >> >> (:require [clojure.string :as string :refer [split]]) ;; use for clojure >> imports >> >> :refer :all can be used to refer everything >> >> Boom! everything you need to know to get started with Clojure's ns. >> What's the problem? >> >> That being said, if you really want your syntax above, nothing is >> stopping you from using your own import function, they are pluggable after >> all: >> >> (ns foo >> (:println "Hello World")) >> >> Hello World >> => nil >> >> So you could easily write something like this: >> >> (ns foo >> (:simple-ns/simple >> [clojure.core match logic async])) >> >> Timothy Baldridge >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 11:21 AM, Greg <g...@kinostudios.com> wrote: >> >>> OK, that's enough from me on this for now, gotta run (lot of work to >>> do!). >>> >>> >>> Sorry, after sending that, I couldn't resist simplifying 'ns' even >>> further! >>> >>> (ns two.namespace >>> "optional doc string goes here" >>> [core :refer-all [matrix math bs]] >>> [clojure :refer-all [core :except (ancestors printf)]] >>> [ring.adapter.jetty :refer (run-jetty)] >>> [ring.middleware.file :refer (wrap-file)] >>> [ring.middleware.file-info :refer (wrap-file-info)] >>> [ring.middleware.stacktrace :refer (wrap-stacktrace)] >>> [ring.util.response :refer (file-response)] >>> [one :refer reload] >>> [one :refer middleware] >>> [net.cgrand :refer [enlive-html :as html]] >>> [org.apache.maven.artifact.resolver :refer ArtifactResolver] >>> [java.io :refer File]) >>> >>> >>> Look at the beauty of that! :-D >>> >>> Now not only have we gotten rid of :use, :require, :import, >>> :refer-clojure, but we're starting to chip away at the mountain of keywords >>> and we still have *all* of the power we had before! We got rid of :as-ns, >>> :as-class and :all! >>> >>> Keep simplifying till you can't simplify anymore! That's the Lisp way! >>> :-) >>> >>> - Greg >>> >>> -- >>> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also >>> sharing with the NSA. >>> >>> On Aug 5, 2013, at 1:14 PM, Greg <g...@kinostudios.com> wrote: >>> >>> (ns one.fresh-server >>> [core :refer-all [matrix math bs]]) >>> >>> >>> I like it. >>> >>> >>> Ideally, the whole thing would be well thought out enough to allow these >>> very basic principles to be combined in complicated ways (kinda like the >>> idea behind Lisp itself). >>> >>> Getting rid of ambiguities might help make it more readable and >>> "generalizable". For example, it could be specified that vectors can >>> contain only namespaces and keywords, and lists can only contain functions. >>> >>> If that rule is applied, the original example plus the :refer-all >>> keyword would look like this: >>> >>> *New School:* >>> >>> (ns two.namespace >>> "optional doc string goes here" >>> [core :refer-all [matrix math bs]] >>> [clojure :refer-all [core :except (ancestors printf)]] >>> [ring.adapter.jetty :refer (run-jetty)] >>> [ring.middleware.file :refer (wrap-file)] >>> [ring.middleware.file-info :refer (wrap-file-info)] >>> [ring.middleware.stacktrace :refer (wrap-stacktrace)] >>> [ring.util.response :refer (file-response)] >>> [one.reload :as-ns] >>> [one.middleware :as-ns] >>> [net.cgrand.enlive-html :as html] >>> [org.apache.maven.artifact.resolver.ArtifactResolver :as-class] >>> [java.io.File :as-class]) >>> >>> >>> Now the functions are emphasized as being functions (because only >>> functions are allowed in lists). >>> >>> Notice that this: >>> >>> [clojure.core :refer-except (ancestors printf)] >>> >>> >>> Has now changed to: >>> >>> [clojure :refer-all [core :except (ancestors printf)]] >>> >>> >>> What if we want to :refer-all everything that's in the first level of >>> the namespace? I see no reason why we couldn't just do this then: >>> >>> [:refer-all [core]] >>> >>> >>> Or optionally, in the case where there's just one namespace in the >>> vector: >>> >>> [:refer-all core] >>> >>> >>> OK, that's enough from me on this for now, gotta run (lot of work to >>> do!). >>> >>> - Greg >>> >>> -- >>> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also >>> sharing with the NSA. >>> >>> On Aug 5, 2013, at 12:59 PM, Lee Spector <lspec...@hampshire.edu> wrote: >>> >>> >>> On Aug 5, 2013, at 12:41 PM, Greg wrote: >>> >>> Can you build in a way to get :require :refer :all to work on a bunch of >>> sub-namespaces together on one line, as one currently can with :use, >>> without listing each namespace completely on a separate line with a >>> separate :refer :all? >>> >>> >>> Certainly. I'm not saying this is how the exact syntax would go, but the >>> general idea is to rely on the keywords to specify what (and how) you want >>> to import stuff: >>> >>> Instead of: >>> >>> (ns one.fresh-server >>> (:use (core matrix math bs)) >>> >>> You could do something like: >>> >>> (ns one.fresh-server >>> [core :refer-all [matrix math bs]]) >>> >>> >>> I like it. >>> >>> I can't personally assess the costs and benefits of the overall >>> proposal, but this would address my concern nicely. >>> >>> -Lee >>> >>> -- >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Clojure" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com >>> Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with >>> your first post. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en >>> --- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Clojure" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> “One of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that–lacking >> zero–they had no way to indicate successful termination of their C >> programs.” >> (Robert Firth) >> >> -- >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "Clojure" group. >> To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com >> Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with >> your first post. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en >> --- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Clojure" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > “One of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that–lacking > zero–they had no way to indicate successful termination of their C > programs.” > (Robert Firth) > > -- > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with > your first post. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Clojure" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. 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