Recommended article for those who want a library accumulator, with 20% effective utility and 80% fat, also called framework: http://www.computer.org/cms/Computer.org/ComputingNow/issues/2015/04/mso2015020010.pdf
On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 8:48 AM, Kristo Koert <kristo.ko...@gmail.com> wrote: > I unfortunately agree on the difficulty of entrance for newcomers to > clojure and I'd like to add that I've been left feeling that this seem to > not be a priority in the community. Once I discussed the visual asthetics > of clojure.org on #clojure and although the tradeoff of easy data access > and eye candy was explained to me, it was done in a way that left me a bit > uneasy. > > My argument was that a more visually appealing homepage would leave a > better first impression and attract more new beginner developers to check > out clojure. (Ex. comparing haskell.org or scala-lang.org vs clojure.org). > An opinion was expressed that "we don't need these low quality people in > the community". > > This excludes quite a lot of complete newcomers, because ofcourse they > cannot tell the merits or demerits of a languages from a wall of text in > unfamiliar syntax from a page that seems to be without much love. They will > see a seemingly unappealing language. They will not have the opportunity to > learn to not judge a programming language based on the homepage until far > later in their careers maybe. > > This leaves me feeling that clojure is only for the already experienced > developers who know the ins and outs of programming and thus know how to > choose their tools, so clojure would have a high concentration of high > quality partitioners. (although less in number) Such a community would have > little use for opinionated web framework, because everyone is smart enough > to choose their own tools. > > Unfortunately I do not feel I fit in and struggle daily to choose the > right tools, since there are no clear cut, best general purpose > defaults. Just my 2c. > > Regards > Kristo > > On Monday, May 4, 2015 at 5:42:08 PM UTC+3, Thiago F M wrote: >> >> My 2 cents: >> >> I don't think the biggest problem is that the community is fragmented as >> there is many options to choose, but that the attitude towards newcomers is >> bad. >> >> Let's say that I was learning clojure about 2 years ago and when I asked >> about which web framework should I use, people started raising stuff about >> the implementation of those frameworks like pedestal have some very strange >> concepts like this one: >> >> >> https://github.com/pedestal/docs/blob/master/documentation/application-overview.md >> >> So I was like: WTF. I'm fucked. Forget that. Let's just go back to the >> clojure book and write a factorial implementation. >> >> So every once in a while I came back to clojure, did something. Studied >> some clojurescript and finally I think that I can write some clojure... but >> that took time and I still don't feel good about it. I feel sometimes that >> there's a lot of very good people working in Relevance which knows >> everything about clojure, but doesn't share anywhere. Maybe if we had a >> couple of very good screencasts and proper documentation of how to write a >> webapp in clojure available in the web. It could be very optioned(about >> what libs to use), it could be even wrong... but getting something done >> when you are beginning is way more important than to be concerned about if >> you are doing the right thing. >> >> But that might be just me. >> >> On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 3:34 PM, Ernie de Feria <ernie....@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> I would like to echo the sentiment expressed by several posters in this >>> thread, but with a slight twist. A few years back I picked up Ruby and Ruby >>> on Rails as the language/framework to create a website with moderate >>> complexity and functionality. I did this without any prior experience with >>> the language of framework. What allowed me to quickly pick up both was the >>> excellent documentation around the language and framework. For example, >>> with the information from http://guides.rubyonrails.org and the >>> canonical application built in https://www.railstutorial.org one can >>> acquire the necessary knowledge to develop highly functional websites. >>> Branching out to leverage "non-canonical" libraries/products then becomes a >>> fairly easy exercise (MongoDB instead of MySQL, Mongoid instead of >>> ActiveRecords, etc.). What allows that to happen is the momentum built >>> around the Rails ecosystem via community participation and documentation. >>> >>> We have recently started to build our "back end" infrastructure in >>> Clojure. Many times we have discussed the value and desire to unify our >>> development efforts on and around Clojure. Inevitably we tally up all the >>> functionality inherited from Ruby gems (that play nice with Rails - the >>> Framework) that would have to be replicated in Clojure and there always >>> shortcomings, not necessarily in the availability of libraries that perform >>> these functions, but in the readily accessible documentation about how to >>> best integrate them. >>> >>> The "composable libraries over framework" mantra is technically solid. >>> What we're missing, in the "web development with Clojure" subset of the >>> community, is the stewardship to create and maintain a canonical >>> amalgamation of composable libraries and the best practices around them - a >>> la https://railstutorial.org. This would lower the barrier of entry >>> into the web development realm for Clojure developers. My 2+ cents. >>> >>> On Saturday, May 2, 2015 at 4:43:53 PM UTC-4, g vim wrote: >>>> >>>> I recently did some research into web frameworks on Github. Here's what >>>> I found: >>>> >>>> >>>> FRAMEWORK LANG CONTRIBUTORS COMMITS >>>> >>>> Luminus Clojure 28 678 >>>> Caribou Clojure 2 275 >>>> >>>> Beego Golang 99 1522 >>>> >>>> Phoenix Elixir 124 1949 >>>> >>>> Yesod Haskell 130 3722 >>>> >>>> Laravel PHP 268 4421 >>>> >>>> Play Scala 417 6085 >>>> >>>> Symfony PHP 1130 20914 >>>> >>>> Rails Ruby 2691 51000 >>>> >>>> >>>> One could conclude from this that the Clojure community isn't that >>>> interested in web development but the last Clojure survey suggests >>>> otherwise. Clojure's library composition approach to everything only >>>> goes so far with large web applications, as Aaron Bedra reminded us in >>>> March last year: www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBL59w7fXw4 . Less manpower >>>> means less momentum and more bugs. Furthermore, I have a hunch that >>>> Clojure's poor adoption as indicated by Indeed.com maybe due to this >>>> immaturity in the web framework sphere. Why is it that Elixir, with a >>>> much smaller community and lifespan than Clojure's, has managed to put >>>> 4 >>>> times as much mindshare into its main web framework when its module >>>> output, as measured by modulecounts.com, is a tiny fraction of >>>> Clojure's? >>>> >>>> gvim >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Clojure" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to clo...@googlegroups.com >>> Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with >>> your first post. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> clojure+u...@googlegroups.com >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en >>> --- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Clojure" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with > your first post. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Clojure" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Hildeberto Mendonça, Ph.D Blog: http://www.hildeberto.com Community: http://www.cejug.net Twitter: https://twitter.com/htmfilho -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
