I’m well aware of the problems of running Spin and Jam boats in the same fleets, and the frustrations of PHRF racing in fleets that have a wide range of boat types ranging from sport boats like the Viper to boats like the San Juan 21. Time on Time is a boon to fairness in a fleet race, but I can’t think of a way that you could set up fair starts for a pursuit race using time on time.
Since the discussion is turning to these things, perhaps I should clarify the reason for my question, and rephrase it. Pirates on the Pungo is an annual charity regatta, held in Belhaven, NC in mid-May. (This year it will be May 15-17) Most keelboats compete in a longish pursuit race on Saturday, with awards given out on Saturday night at the dinner dance, and a second (optional) race on Sunday morning. One designs and dinghies compete in windward-leeward races on both days. The pursuit course is typically the one I described – about 10 NM with N,S, E, and W legs, starting and ending inside the breakwater in the harbor. The keelboats compete for three deep prizes in three classes: Spinnaker, PHRF Non-Spinnaker, and Cruising. Cruising boats are white sails and not generally raced. Usually there are about 30 keelboats, with Cruising being the largest class. I plan to conduct a “C&C Rendezvous” within the Pirates on the Pungo regatta. I know of about 10 C&Cs within a day’s travel of Belhaven, which allows travel on Friday to arrive for the Skipper’s Reception, compete on Saturday, and sail home on Sunday. (There are actually 5 C&Cs at the River Rat Yacht Club just 5 miles away) And another 10 or so are within 2 day’s travel. Using the event as a venue makes everything really simple. Someone else provides the RC, committee boats, marks, photographer, the Friday evening cocktail party, Saturday breakfast, Saturday steak and seafood buffet, Sunday brunch, the band for the dance, and beer and soda for the weekend. There is free dockage available in Belhaven. And since the regatta is part of the Belhaven Pirate Fest this year there is even street music and shore side activities on Saturday for family and kids who don’t want to race. All I need to do is arrange a race within a race for the C&C owners to stimulate competition and camaraderie, provide a prize (and I think one of Andrew Burton’s half hulls of the winner’s own boat is a really nice prize), figure out how to determine the winner, and get the word out to C&C owners. Figuring out how to determine who gets the prize is the reason for asking the original question. Participants will be competing for the overall prizes in one of three classes, in a pursuit race based on PHRF ratings. I’ve been involved in regattas where the overall winner got a prize for being first in the “most competitive” class, but never thought the methods for determining “most competitive” were very equitable. The other alternative I could think of was to determine an adjustment to the PHRF ratings of the JAM boats, and then score the C&Cs based on their actual time on the course just like you would a Time on Distance race. So let me rephrase my question: If I have a fleet of 8 to 10 C&C sailboats competing in a single event over the same course at the same time, but in different (spin & Jam) classes, what is an equitable way to determine which boat is the best performer? All suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Rick Brass Washington, NC From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Chuck S via CnC-List Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 1:58 PM To: Michael Brown; CNC boat owners, cnc-list Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet Very good summary of things I saw too when racing against different style boats in the same fleet. Instead of the fleet placings, we found we could measure our performance best by comparing us against similar C&Cs. I lost interest in racing when similar boats stopped competing and we had to race against a Viper 640, a Pearson Triton 28 and a J-24 and a J-28 all in the same fleet. Apples and oranges. I see why one design is so popular and so competitive. Chuck Resolute 1990 C&C 34R Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md _____ From: "Michael Brown via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 12:42:12 PM Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet > consensus opinion on how to adjust PHRF ratings to allow spin > and JAM boats to compete in a single (small) fleet Typical it works poorly. On moderately heavy days were most boats can get up towards hull speed and sail deep downwind the JAM boats will be about as fast as the spin boats but will carry a +12 to +23 advantage. On very light days if the scoring is time-on-time while everyone is gently drifting downwind the boats with a +24 will be accumulating too much adjusted time. In moderate wind conditions the spin boats will sail to their ratings, but so will the JAM boats. Might be fair for those days. >The race on Saturday is a longish (10-12NM) pursuit race that starts and > finishes in the harbor and has north, south, east, and west legs. For PHRF Lake Ontario the ratings are based on windward - leeward courses with 1 mile legs in about 4 - 18 kts of wind. The ratings were never designed for long distance races. I raced last summer in a mixed FS - NFS fleet. Well, hard to call it racing and I am not sure about the summer part either. Fleet spread was 91, and went from a Kirby 30 and J/80 to a Sprinta Sport. I managed to see first hand all the ways mixed fleets and wide PHRF spreads do not work. At least it does reduce the pile ups at the marks you get in a OD fleet. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rick Brass via CnC-List Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 9:17 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> Subject: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet OK. I know this has been discussed before. But I just spent almost two hours in the mail archives rereading a whole bunch of previous messages, trying to come up with a consensus opinion on how to adjust PHRF ratings to allow spin and JAM boats to compete in a single (small) fleet. What I firmly believe I have discovered is that, sort of like economists and politicians, if you laid all the opinions end to end they would never reach a conclusion. I know that a number of PHRF organizations give a boat both a Spin and a non-spin rating. And I understand that local some local organizations with small fleets running in a single event will adjust the ratings of boats in non-spin to promote more even competition. From what I can see, the credit for running non-spin seems to be in the range of 10-18 seconds, or 10-15% of the boat's PHRF. What I'm trying to do is plan for a "C&C Cup" to be run as part of a local charity regatta called Pirates on the Pungo, in Belhaven, NC on the weekend of May 15-17. More on that later. The race on Saturday is a longish (10-12NM) pursuit race that starts and finishes in the harbor and has north, south, east, and west legs. I know of about 15 C&Cs within a day's travel of Belhaven, so I'm guessing the fleet would include 8-10 boats, with some cruisers and 1 or 2 real racers. To promote camaraderie and competition, and also so I don't have to pony up too much for the prizes (the winner will get a half hull of his own boat made by Andrew Burton), we would have a single fleet. So help me here: How does your local PHRF or sailing club adjust the ratings between Spin and JAM to allow both types of boats in a single fleet? And how equitable are the results based on your experience? Rick Brass Imzadi C&C 38 mk 2 la Belle Aurore C&C 25 mk1 Washington, NC _______________________________________________ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com <mailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
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