On 21 Dec 2004, at 20:24, Ceki Gülcü wrote:
At 07:51 PM 12/21/2004, robert burrell donkin wrote:
now it's getting political :(
Your comments about the "optionality" of consultations elicited my political response.
i've given up politics.
(feel free to reply to my missive but please spend some time creating some worthwhile since i have no intention of posting any more replies to this thread. the only reason i've created a reply is that i suspect there may have been some misunderstanding of the points i wished to make early.)
Many ASF members were involved with Apache at one point or another. Moreover, Jakarta has quite a few influential, I dare say, very influential, members. Thus, it is not easy to emphasize with the sense of victimization shared by some Jakarta committers.
i wasn't trying to suggest that jakarta committers are victims, just that it's another symptom of the problems which the ASF has with jakarta.
FWIW AFAIK the committers who feel victimized are outside jakarta. IMHO committers who are vocally critical of the ASF (as an organization) are something about which the membership should be concerned. some of them simply have an obvious axe to grind but for others, a few humble and kind words were all would have been required. certainly, threats by members to communities (especially without adequate ASF representation) at a time such as this seems to play a little too much into their hands. i hope and trust that this wasn't the intent of your previous post.
(conversely, if you do think that JCL is out of scope for the commons or is at danger of becoming so - and that it's a big enough issue to consider things such as appealing to the members, then please tell me and i'd be glad to nominate you - and any other logging services pmc members who are interested - as committers for the commons and give you a free hand to sort out the problem as you best see fit. at least that way, myself and the rest of the JCL community will have a voice and some sort of vote. that would seem to me to be much more in the old apache spirit, at least as far as i can remember it...)
If proportionally too few Jakarta committers are ASF members, which I
honestly doubt to be the case,
this one came up a while ago (IIRC greg stein raised the demography problem as one of the issues with jakarta). proportionally, there are/were too many committers, not enough pmc members and too few members. jakarta is addressing the first (sub-projects moving to TLP status) and the second. the third can be addressed by the members only. i can appreciate why the membership has grown in the way though i had hoped for a little more understanding that this situation is of the member's own making.
what is keeping existing Jakarta members from increasing their own representation?
we both know that the majority of jakarta members (yourself, for example) are actually now primarily involved with top level projects outside jakarta. even our chair isn't a member. the membership grows organically.
FWIW i'm actually happy that there isn't a jakarta faction amongst the membership pushing jakarta committers forward: it's healthy. it's good that the membership cares more for the ASF than any particular project. what isn't so good is that they've done a bad job over the last few months in appearing to care about the committers and communities which create the code. i am quite sure that this isn't true but i do think there's a danger that this perceived gap may become a destructive gulf in the future. so please let's not start that particular war here...
matters of scope are less important than matters of community. if strong community backing emerges then the scope issues can easily be solved. if no community emerges then matters of scope will become irrelevant.
It all depends on how you define community. By community do you mean Jakarta Commons, Jakarta or the rest of the ASF?
community in the usual apache sense of the word. (or possibly: in the old apache sense of the word).
- robert
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