Ok, my experience in the marketing field is very specific, and my experience as an engineer is practically non-existant (i'm still studying), so i wil lsimply step back and listen to you guys on this discussion. I just wanted to point out a really cool idea/product/service (call it like you want): http://zooppa.com/ I'ts a really cool idea of making advertisement social.. in some sort of way. I really like this idea and would liek to point it to you guys :D
On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 10:12 PM, Lowell Higley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Matt.. > > I think I get a sense of where you are coming from. As an engineer, one > thinks "oh no, here comes these marketing people with their unrealistic > requirements again." Been there. Even been on the giving end. :( On the > flip side, as a marketer one sometimes thinks, "Man, will these guys ever > get a clue, no one wants that feature set." In a *perfect* world, engineers > and marketers would be equal partners.. I don't think I've actually seen > this work perfectly yet but I know the relationship I built with the > engineering at Unisys was hard earned and it was built on trust (both ways.) > It was a pretty good relationship and took me a few years to build. You have > to treat the other side as part of the team, not the enemy as we have > instincts to do. I've done it, I know. > > Here's how I see the roles working in an open environment... > > The marketing team creates a list of features that the product needs to > have. There is a lot that goes into this I want to keep it simple for now. > They sit down with the engineering team and create a list of agreed upon > features (even suggested features engineering brings to the table) that go > into the next product, prioritized of course. That list of features is > created based on priority and feasibility of hitting the target completion > date (agreed upon by everyone.. sort of.) Engineering then makes the magic > happen... when a feature or requirement turns out it can't be met (through > bug or other technical issue) both teams work out either a revised feature > list or target date. Depends on how important that feature is. I've been > in situations where I was told 5 days before the target date "oh by the way, > we dumped that must have feature x." > > While the engineering team is building the marketing team is working out the > future of the next product and creating the collateral and campaign for the > product in development. All publicly of course, with the aid of anyone > (including the techie folks) that wants to help. I have a lot of ideas. I > was thinking the bug database would be a good place to keep feature > suggestions/submissions... but I couldn't find a bug database in the wiki. > I must be blind. From that point, it's a big cycle. Once you get it > going... it's easy to keep on it. The hard part is building the > collaborative tools/process to do all this in. > > I think as an after thought, maybe we don't want to split into teams, just > create a logical process... Not sure how that would work, though. People > have definite skills in one are or the other. Anyways, that's my hair > brained idea... I guess I should talk this out with Steve before I go too > much further down this road. Thanks for the feedback. I think I understand > your perspective now. > > Lowell > > PS - regarding Open Marketing, I'm a fan. I've been attempting to load the > framework on my Motorola E680i but not had too much success. Damn QVGA. > The people in my LUG know I am very interested in this project so I get > questions once a week via IRC on Openmoko. Far from an expert but they seem > to like my answer. I know if I had one to show off at a meeting, it would > be a hit. > > > > On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 10:22 AM, Crane, Matthew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > > I understand what you're saying about engineers tossing a product over the > wall being a throw back. *Of course* there's back and forth and both > marketing and rnd contributing to each other.. > > > > But I think it is typical for engineers to yearn for a larger role in > marketing decisions and, less so, marketing to overstate their role in > product engineering. Both groups have strong investments in the product > dev process in different ways. I think engineering tends to be more of a > group development effort, where marketing relies more on the strength of > individuals, all with very good reasons. > > > > > > If the concerns are too overlapped, or if there is no seperation and > specialization, I don't think that works well generally. I think there's > very high value wrt role seperation and specialization. I don't think it > was suggested that there was some kind of wall in the middle, that's > ridiculous. But the best products come from a respect for the others roles > and intense focus on what people are good at. > > > > Matt > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lowell Higley > > Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 12:11 PM > > > > > > > > To: List for Openmoko community discussion > > Subject: Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok.. I'm severely jet lagged but I will try to throw some closure on this > and hope it is coherent. Steve has been very cordial and enlightening in > his mails to me. The last I have yet to digest and respond to but overall > it is good, constructive stuff. After reading the diaglogue that has ensued, > I totally understand why he wanted to take the conversation private. We'll > has some things and go from there. Sorry for starting a firestorm. > > > > I want to let everyone know I don't intend to be negative and that was why > I sent that last message. If I see problems, I want to offer solutions. I > also want to thank Stroller for his phenomenal job for capturing (and > translating) what I was trying to say. > > > > There was one statement made that I want to comment on... > > > > >I mean marketing is really just "how to sell"....<SNIP> > > > > That statement could not be farther from the truth, IMHO. I think any > Tech CEO worth his salt would tell you the same. That very statement and > belief is why so many startups in Silicon Valley (and probably worldwide) > with very amazing products have gone bankrupt. I have friends that lived > through that nightmare. That mindset is the very essence of the problem my > original e-mail was trying to address. I couldn't have summed it better > myself. It makes it sound like engineering comes up with a product all on > it's own, throws it over a wall and to Marketing and says "here, sell it". > Kind of like a hot potato. That was the case once... in the 60's, I believe. > > > > Today, any company that had that mindset would not last long unless they > had very deep pockets. Yes, I have a specific company in mind. My thought > is let's roll that marketing effort over to this project from a community > perspective. A lot of Open Source projects already do it.. Open Office is > the first one that comes to mind. One of the thing I want to do with Steve > is draw some boundaries... What is in Openmoko's court, and what is in the > community's court regarding marketing... etc. > > > > In the meantime, let's roll out the FreeRunner and once it's out, well > attack the next project publicly. Ok.. I'm going to sleep now. :) Cheers! > > > > Lowell > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 6:58 PM, steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > thanks for explaining that to folks > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stroller > > > Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 2:01 PM > > > To: List for Openmoko community discussion > > > Subject: Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 28 Apr 2008, at 17:54, hank williams wrote: > > > > > > > I have to say my unvoiced thoughts were the same as Ryan's. I was > > > > not at all clear why a call for the community to help figure > > > > marketing stuff out would be met by a request to take the > > > > discussion off list as though it was somehow inappropriate for > > > > public discussion. It seemed like a very strange response. Now > > > > reading the responses to Ryan's comments seem even more strange. I > > > > feel like I am missing something because the responses to Ryan's > > > > comments seem on the surface, inappropriate as well. > > > > > > > > > If you read further back in this thread you'll see that the subject > > > changed in reply to my message, "Re: Ugliness" (26 April 2008 > > > 13:58:04 BST). > > > > > > If you read back you'll see that before that someone was complaining > > > "the Freerunner will never sell in the mass-market because me & my > > > friends think it's ugly", and my counterpoint was, "heck, I'm sure > > > FIC have done some market research (focus groups &c)". > > > > > > Lowell Higley obviously knows his stuff regarding selling tech > > > products, and he raises some interesting points. I immediately wanted > > > to reply to them, but I could have spent hours doing so. Not to argue > > > with him, just to purse interesting avenues of discussion. > > > > > > But Lowell's insights are far more in depth than your average Xbox vs > > > Playstation, who's-winning-the-format-war, fanbois' forum thread. As > > > Lowell says: > > > > > > Marketing is much more than holding focus groups and creating sales > > > copy. There is competitive analysis, business cases, marketing > > > requirements, "negotiating" with engineering over the final product, > > > schedule.. and the list goes on. My point is, as I look at things > > > and put the picture together, I see no strong marketing presence > > > in the FreeRunner. Where's the MRD? Where's the focus group? > > > Where's the business case? > > > > > > In case you don't speak the business jargon, "competitive analysis" > > > means "how much does the competition sell for, how much will it cost > > > us to make a similar product and how much profit can we make?". > > > > > > "Business cases" and the results of focus groups, say FIC stating > > > that "you & your friends may think it's ugly, but we reckon we can > > > sell XX thousand units and make $yyyyyyy profit" aren't really any of > > > our business. > > > > > > In his second message (27 April 2008 18:16:11 BST) Lowell raises the > > > "goal" of the OpenMoko project, which is ostensibly "the best > > > possible mobile phone software stack" that can be installed over a > > > wide range of phones. But underlying that is the fact that the goal > > > of FIC, in sponsoring OpenMoko, is to sell more phones and (like any > > > business) make more profit. > > > > > > For any company this sort of information - the anticipated number of > > > units sold, market breakdown &c - is a trade secret, and I don't see > > > why OpenMoko should be any different. In many cases this sort of > > > information may be available to someone with experience in the > > > industry (or reasonably estimable by them), but it may not be the > > > sort of information that any company will publish casually. > > > > > > Whilst OpenMoko may be interested in public discussion of what we > > > consumers want (colours, features &c), whilst they may be interested > > > in open discussion of ideas and whilst they're obviously prepared to > > > give fuller and more dynamic feedback to us, how much money they're > > > making on each phone is none of our business. I'm sure that Apple > > > don't even tell their shareholders how much each iPod costs to build. > > > > > > When we buy FIC's OpenMoko products we're buying hardware that is > > > guaranteed open-source, so that we can fix it ourselves. We're buying > > > FIC's sponsorship of the programmers contributing to the OpenMoko > > > codebase and we're buying a promise of warranty & support in the > > > future (we obviously hope that FIC will continue to sponsor updated > > > firmware for our phones in the future, and we're pretty confident > > > they're going to do so longer - and provider better feature updates - > > > than Sony Ericson). Just as, in polite company, one doesn't ask one's > > > friends or acquaintances how much they earn, it is likewise none of > > > our business how much FIC makes out of each phone sake, and it seems > > > to me that that's pretty much what the "secrecy" whiners on this > > > thread are asking for (although they may not have actually realised > > > that), > > > > > > Any company will provide "inside information" to the trade press - > > > perhaps if you're able to demonstrate such informed questions as > > > Lowell has then FIC'll invite you, too, to their opening > > > presentations. You'll maybe have to sign an NDA, but you'll still be > > > able to make oblique tips to your readers based on your improved > > > vision of the mobile phone market place. What you have to do first is > > > demonstrate that you're not a whining fanboi, but that your unique > > > insight can add value to the discussion of the product. > > > > > > I found Lowell's remarks interesting because he seems to be looking > > > at Freerunner's place in the market from the old closed-development > > > point of view. It seems likely to me that FIC don't need to sell as > > > many phones as Nokia in order to make a profit, at least not all at > > > once - the developing state of OpenMoko will ensure a longer > > > production life-span for the Freerunner than the 6 months or so of > > > the typical mobile phone in the high street store. As the first > > > generation of OpenMoko phone, the whole production span of Freerunner > > > may be a loss-leader to FIC - one might expect the buzz and blogging > > > generated over the course of two years to increase massively the > > > demand for OpenMoko's 2010 (say) product. > > > > > > Stroller. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Openmoko community mailing list > > > community@lists.openmoko.org > > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Openmoko community mailing list > > > community@lists.openmoko.org > > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Openmoko community mailing list > > community@lists.openmoko.org > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > -- My corner of the web: http://blog.ramsesoriginal.org _______________________________________________ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community