RE: CNNs: They can be, and have been, successfully applied to "movies" as well. See http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rahuls/pub/cvpr2014-deepvideo-rahuls.pdf Also, in the first .pdf I linked you, the input layer has a notion of "age" of the stones. For example, this stone was played 5 moves ago, this one 3 moves ago, etc. So, it is not a strictly static snapshot of a board. In any event, the best performance will probably not come ONLY from CNNs (although its prediction accuracy is surprisingly high), but the marriage of CNNs to monte-carlo tree search, etc.
My sense is that we will continue clinging to romantic notions of human intelligence (shapes, proverbs, etc.) until we eventually get ground to dust in a Deep-Blue style competition. Not too long now :) On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 9:33 PM, djhbrown . <djhbr...@gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks for the replies to my first message; i looked at the links you > supplied and comment on them later in this email. > > I noticed that Google does not show you the playlist when you look at > episode 1 of the series (of currently 3 videos), so you may have missed the > second two episodes which are more significant than the first. Here is a > link to the playlist: > > https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4y5WtsvtduqNW0AKlSsOdea3Hl1X_v-S > > episode 2 introduces mental images and episode 3 is a conversation between > Hajin Lee and me about her thoughts on a couple of moves early in one of > her games. It includes my first attempt at "picturing" her thoughts, both > as symbolic information structures and as paint overlays on the game board. > > My hope is that the former might one day become the basis of symbolic > generic heuristic rules that could be used to generate and evaluate move > candidates and the latter could evolve into useful instructional materials > for people learning the game - so that they can, so to speak, "look through > the eyes" of an expert like Hajin. > > To these ends, i need the assistance of people with better skills than me > at (a) drawing pictures, (b) software and (c) Go. I think that programming > is like gymnastics - best done by the young, with their abundance of > enthusiasm and energy. I enjoyed programming 50 years ago, but i'm too old > in the tooth now to burn midnight oil. > > Now to your replies: > > Folkert: "Stop" is a good start but as you already know, there's a long > way to go yet :) > > Steven: I expect there is a future for CNN's in recognising static > images, but my gut feel is that a position in a Go game is more like one > frame of a movie; as such, it requires a technology that can interpret > dynamic images - maybe work being done in automatous car driving can > contribute something useful to Go playing? Nevertheless, I was surprised > by the many humanlike moves of DCNNigo on KGS (until it revealed its > brittleness). To be sure, drawing upon the moves of experts is one way of > gaining expertise, but my feeling is that one should try to abstract the > position - to generalise from the examples - so that general knowledge can > be formed and applied to novel situations. It may be that a CNN arguably > does do some kind of generalisation - but can it, for example, characterise > something as basic as "the waist of a keima"? > > Ingo: Tanja may be the kind of artist who could produce nice drawings of > Hajin's mental images, perhaps based on my own crude sketches? It would be > unpaid work though... I liked Fuego's and Jonathan's territory pictures, > which reminded me of Zobrist's early work on computing influence. [Albert > Zobrist (*1969*). *A Model of Visual Organisation for the Game of Go*. > Proceedings of the Spring Joint Computer Conference, Vol. 34, pp. 103-112.] > However, whereas being able to picture influence and territory is one of my > objectives, i want to try to picture the richness of what Hajin (aka > Haylee) sees rather than the result of a primitive computation. For > example, at 10:24 in episode 3, she points out that when black is on J4 > instead of K4, there is an opening in black's lower side for white to > invade. This tiny gap makes all the difference to the dynamic meaning of > the position a few moves prior (ie whether it is sensible for white to > approach Q3 at Q5). > > One of the major influences on my own thinking about Go programming is the > seminal work "Thought and Choice in Chess" by Adriaan de Groot which i > reckon is well worth a read by anyone interested in programming Go > https://books.google.com.au/books?id=b2G1CRfNqFYC&pg=PA99 > > --- > ​personal website <http://sites.google.com/site/djhbrown2/home> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Computer-go mailing list > Computer-go@computer-go.org > http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go >
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