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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Question about Latin E and Slavic yat'
From: Jan van Steenbergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Advanced English + Babel text
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Question about Latin E and Slavic yat'
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Tundrian
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
From: Jan van Steenbergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Tundrian
From: Jan van Steenbergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: samhain?
From: Michael Poxon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Advanced English + Babel text
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: Advanced English + Babel text
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: Advanced English + Babel text
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. How Infants Crack the Speech Code
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 10:23:19 +0000
From: Jan van Steenbergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Question about Latin E and Slavic yat'
--- Roger Mills skrzypszy:
> Unless I'm mistaken, long e diphthongized in certain envs. in
> French-- the pronouns me/te/se, words like lege-, rege-, credere,
> debere etc. (C-loss may have something to do with those; I don't
> recall the rules offhand.)
That's true. I don't recall the rules offhand either, but I do know
that it only happens when the syllable is stressed. I was indeed
thinking about French. However, in all Romance languages were
diphthongisation occurs, diphthongisation of [E] occurred much
earlier than diphthongisation of [e].
> Substratum perhaps? The universal panacea for perplexed linguists
> :-)))
Yes. Although I don't know much about substratum, unfortunately. As
far as I know, the region was almost uninhabitated when the Romans
came. The Slavs arrived a good deal later.
> It seems a little contradictory (to me) that low vowels would
> raise, while high vowels would lower.
Agreed. The best I can do is merging them altogether (although a
slight distinction must remain; otherwise /e/ wouldn't become /o/ and
/e^/ wouldn't become /a/ before a hard dental consonant.
Jan
=====
"If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room
with a mosquito."
Relay 10: http://steen.free.fr/relay10/
___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger -
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 02:54:11 -0800
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Advanced English + Babel text
On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 02:37:45 -0500, J. 'Mach' Wust <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Even the usual pronunciation mistakes made by Germans are included, that is,
> /T, D/ are spelled the same way as /s, z/ (all with |s|) and /w/ is spelled
> the same way as /v/.
I was reading his reform and yes, I was confused as to why he was
using |s| for /s, T, D/ In English of course, all S's are pronounced
as s. that's a bit of a backwards step if you ask me. Besides, English
at least nicely handles these anyway with just |th|. If you wanted to
be picky, then you could use |th| and |dh| for /T/ and /D/.
There is also a reason why we use w and v as separate letters. No
native English speaker will ever confuse the two and they work to
distinguish very distinct sounds. The *only* time an English speaker
will use /v/ in place of a /w/ in words spelled with |w| is a mock
imitation of a German or a "Dracula" accent: /aj va:nt tu sAk jo:r
blod/ - "I want to suck your blood!" It actually makes things more
confusing to use w for /w/ and /v/.
--
You can turn away from me
but there's nothing that'll keep me here you know
And you'll never be the city guy
Any more than I'll be hosting The Scooby Show
Scooby Show - Belle and Sebastian
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 07:39:44 -0500
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Question about Latin E and Slavic yat'
Jan van Steenbergen scripsit:
> That's true. I don't recall the [French] rules offhand either, but I do know
> that it only happens when the syllable is stressed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_French lists them, and I summarize here:
(CL > PWR > OF)
a, a: > a > e
e, ae > E > ie
e:, oe, i > e > ei
i: > i > i
o > O > uo
o:, u > o > ou
u > u > y
au > au > o
--
John Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan
The known is finite, the unknown infinite; intellectually we stand
on an islet in the midst of an illimitable ocean of inexplicability.
Our business in every generation is to reclaim a little more land,
to add something to the extent and the solidity of our possessions.
--Thomas Henry Huxley
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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 09:09:45 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
On Sun, Oct 31, 2004 at 03:45:28PM -0500, Pascal A. Kramm wrote:
> It's exactly the same in German - either th sound can only be heard from
> people having a speech defect. As such, the sound is very undesirable, and
> that's why I wrote a German would be rather *disgusted* by it (and certainly
> not *ashamed*).
The two are equally mind-boggling for me. I can understand thinking
that the sound is silly; I can understand maybe being a little
embarrassed to pronounce it; but disgusted by it? That's simply
ludicrous.
-Marcos
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Message: 5
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 09:16:42 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
On Sun, Oct 31, 2004 at 08:54:45AM -0500, Sally Caves wrote:
> I'd call it "shame"; perhaps discomfort? I'll admit to feeling
> a little silly pronouncing Spanish the Castillian way. Cerveza and zapato
> make me feel as though I'm lisping, and having grown up with Mexican
> Spanish, it's extra work for me to remember what is an "s" and what isn't.
I swap back and forth between Latin American and Castillian
pronunciation depending on my interlocutors. I don't know why, though.
As a non-native speaker, I could just stick with what I was taught, in
which case I sound mostly like I have a Cuban accent (no doubt tinged with
some Americanism). But when speaking with my friend from Pamplona I
automatically drop into Castilian mode.
Fortunately, I have a very visual memory for vocabulary - whenver I
think of a word, the spelling automatically comes with it - so
*remembering* what's an 's' and what's a 'z'/'c' isn't an issue. But
even so I have to fight a slight tendency to turn all [s]s into [T]
due to analogy (ceceo).
> I've produced similar hilarity in students I'm trying to
> teach the Welsh lateral fricative to. But [T], I think, has more negative
> charge in many cultures.
Hilarity I can understand; the extreme negative reactions, not at all.
Besides, I think [K] is such a *fun* sound! I don't know why [T] isn't
regarded similarly by those whose languages lack it.
-Marcos
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Message: 6
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 09:35:40 -0500
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Tundrian
I stumbled upon Tundrian today, a Romance language with many unusual
features spoken in an island country west of France. The grammar and
vocabulary are well-developed; there are also political and linguistic
maps (there are five other languages spoken in the island, but no details)
and some material on the constitution of Tundria.
http://www.tundria.com/TundriaFolder/TundLang.htm
--
Time alone is real John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
the rest imaginary http://www.reutershealth.com
like a quaternion --phma http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 7
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 09:36:18 -0500
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 09:09:45 -0500, Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Sun, Oct 31, 2004 at 03:45:28PM -0500, Pascal A. Kramm wrote:
>> It's exactly the same in German - either th sound can only be heard from
>> people having a speech defect. As such, the sound is very undesirable,
>> and that's why I wrote a German would be rather *disgusted* by it (and
>> certainly not *ashamed*).
>
>The two are equally mind-boggling for me. I can understand thinking
>that the sound is silly; I can understand maybe being a little
>embarrassed to pronounce it; but disgusted by it? That's simply
>ludicrous.
I understand better the idea to be ashamed of that sound. I think my English
has become more or less usable over the years, but when I speak it, then I
inevitably happen to confuse /T, D/ with /s, z/ (both ways). It doesn't
happen many times, but it keeps happening, and so I am a little ashamed of
pronouncing it too confidently or loudly, because I might err. It's a
similar situation to a musician who knows the parts he doesn't manage well
and therefore plays them very low.
I have a similar problem with my dialect's short /e/ (or /E/ - like in
English, the quality is somewhere inbetween) vs. short /&/, since until the
age of ten, I spoke only standard German which merges them.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
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Message: 8
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:52:48 +0000
From: Jan van Steenbergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
--- Mark J. Reed skrzypszy:
> I swap back and forth between Latin American and Castillian
> pronunciation depending on my interlocutors.
Same here with English: I was taught to speak British English, then
"spoiled" by the fact that 95% of the English you hear all day is
American English, further spoiled by the fact that I usually speak
English with other furners, and to that I always to my best to avoid
a Dutch accent. In general, it becomes more British when I'm
conversating with an Englishman, and more American when I'm
conversating with an American.
> Hilarity I can understand; the extreme negative reactions, not at
> all.
The word "disgust" was poorly chosen, but give Pascal some credit,
because this kind of mistakes are made very easily when it's not your
native language you are writing in.
Disgust is certainly not what it is. I'd rather call it a feeling of
embarrassment or discomfort, which you get when producing the sound.
The phrase "extremely negative" is an exaggeration. But I suppose for
many people a logic like: [T] = speech defect = loser, weirdo,
whatever..., might be at work. And perhaps the fact that it is
considered impolite to show your tongue. But let me repeat that we
are dealing with [T] in Dutch, German and undoubtedly many other
languages that lack [T]; it applies nót to a native speaker
pronouncing English.
Jan
=====
"If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room
with a mosquito."
Relay 10: http://steen.free.fr/relay10/
___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger -
all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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Message: 9
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:55:21 +0000
From: Jan van Steenbergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Tundrian
--- John Cowan skrzypszy:
> I stumbled upon Tundrian today, a Romance language with many
> unusual features spoken in an island country west of France. The
> grammar and vocabulary are well-developed; there are also political
> and linguistic maps (there are five other languages spoken in the
> island, but no details) and some material on the constitution of
> Tundria.
>
> http://www.tundria.com/TundriaFolder/TundLang.htm
It's a great language, and its vocabulary is really huge! Gábor
participated with it in the last relay, and I had the pleasure to
translate from it: http://steen.free.fr/relay10/tundrian.html
Jan
=====
"If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room
with a mosquito."
Relay 10: http://steen.free.fr/relay10/
___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger -
all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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Message: 10
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:51:23 -0000
From: Michael Poxon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: samhain?
Beltane is actually an Anglicisation of "Bealtaine" pronounced /bjOlhi:ni/ =
"May".
Imbolc I think is pronounced much as it looks, with a bit of a hiatus
between the l and c, so "Imbollock!"
And Lughnasadh = /lu:na:s@/
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "caeruleancentaur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: samhain?
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> joshua tanaka wrote:
>
> > why is 'samhain' pronounced 'saUen' ?
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
>
>
> I knew about this pronunciation. Would someone help me (us) with the
> pronunciation of the other three: Beltane, Imbolc and Lughnassadh?
>
> Charlie
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Message: 11
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 10:58:25 -0500
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> On Sun, Oct 31, 2004 at 08:54:45AM -0500, Sally Caves wrote:
>> I'd call it "shame"; perhaps discomfort? I'll admit to feeling
>> a little silly pronouncing Spanish the Castillian way. Cerveza and
>> zapato
>> make me feel as though I'm lisping, and having grown up with Mexican
>> Spanish, it's extra work for me to remember what is an "s" and what
>> isn't.
>
> I swap back and forth between Latin American and Castillian
> pronunciation depending on my interlocutors. I don't know why, though.
> As a non-native speaker, I could just stick with what I was taught, in
> which case I sound mostly like I have a Cuban accent (no doubt tinged with
> some Americanism). But when speaking with my friend from Pamplona I
> automatically drop into Castilian mode.
Where were you trained? I learned Spanish in Southern California.
Much "eastern" Latin American Spanish drops final "s," I find. Among the
Puerto Ricans, I think, and also the Argentinians. (Am I correct?). So
that often I'll hear buena noche for buenas noches. Is it also a Cuban
trait? (it makes comprehension fiendish for me).
> Fortunately, I have a very visual memory for vocabulary - whenver I
> think of a word, the spelling automatically comes with it - so
> *remembering* what's an 's' and what's a 'z'/'c' isn't an issue. But
> even so I have to fight a slight tendency to turn all [s]s into [T]
> due to analogy (ceceo).
Me, too. Even though I share with you a visual memory of language (that's
interesting, isn't it?), the temptation to turn all /s/ sounds into /T/ when
I'm "practicing" Castillian is hard to fight. The final "s" in zapatos I
usually pronounce the same as the initial "z." But I produce spoonerisms,
too, in my native language. Kelen Heller. (I almost typed that below!)
In English, I can see the words as I speak them written out before me, and I
can fake typing them (on a table), at a slightly slower speed than I speak
them. I used to know the alphabet in American Sign Language (I played Helen
Keller in _The Miracle Worker_ ) and for years, I'd spell out compulsively
with my hands words that I was thinking or saying. (I learned to drop that
unacceptable behavior!!)
In foreign languages, I see the words written in my head before I utter
them. But what's interesting is that I also need to see them written out in
the air when someone else is speaking, and that doesn't happen as easily.
Aural comprehension must take place in a different section of the brain's
language center, and for me, perfect aural comprehension of a foreign
language is the last and hardest skill to achieve.
>> I've produced similar hilarity in students I'm trying to
>> teach the Welsh lateral fricative to. But [T], I think, has more
>> negative
>> charge in many cultures.
>
> Hilarity I can understand; the extreme negative reactions, not at all.
> Besides, I think [K] is such a *fun* sound! I don't know why [T] isn't
> regarded similarly by those whose languages lack it.
Either misuse of the word "disgust" or a bias towards one's own language.
I suppose if I were asked to make a "raspberry" for a phoneme in a
hypothetical foreign language whose culture accepted and encouraged the
spray of saliva, I'd probably laugh, and feel some reluctance. But I would
have to accept it.
Sally
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Message: 12
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 11:51:18 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
On Mon, Nov 01, 2004 at 10:58:25AM -0500, Sally Caves wrote:
> Where were you trained? I learned Spanish in Southern California.
Middle Georgia. But my instructor was a Cuban emigré - from the initial
exodus after Castro took over.
> Much "eastern" Latin American Spanish drops final "s," I find. Among the
> Puerto Ricans, I think, and also the Argentinians. (Am I correct?). So
> that often I'll hear buena noche for buenas noches. Is it also a Cuban
> trait? (it makes comprehension fiendish for me).
Yup. It's not quite dropped, though; it's said to be "aspirated", and turns
into an [h] - but for most native English speakers, a final [h] might as
well be silent. "Hasta luego!" comes out as [,ahta'lweGo] in normal
speech. In rapid speech I'm convinced the [h] does disappear utterly,
and the [G] softens even more until it's an approximant instead of a
fricative, but I have no idea how one would write that in CXS vel sim.
> Me, too. Even though I share with you a visual memory of language (that's
> interesting, isn't it?), the temptation to turn all /s/ sounds into /T/ when
> I'm "practicing" Castillian is hard to fight. The final "s" in zapatos I
> usually pronounce the same as the initial "z."
I "practice" Castilian by singing my personal no-doubt-incorrect
translation of "99 bottles of beer on the wall":
Noventa y nueve botellas de cerveza en la pared
etc. Every line includes |ll| (which varies between [j] and [Z] in my
automatic faux-Cuban accent, but is [L] when I'm trying to sound
Castilian), an [s], and two [T]s, plus whatever you get from the
number. The numbers provide lots of practice for keeping [s]s and [T]s
straight, with entries like "sesenta y cinco", "cincuenta y siete",
etc.
> But I produce spoonerisms, too, in my native language. Kelen Heller.
> (I almost typed that below!)
Ah, yes, Kellen Heller, the poor dind and bleaf child. The Wiracle
Mirker is a great play/movie. How old were you when you played the
part?
> In English, I can see the words as I speak them written out before me, and I
> can fake typing them (on a table), at a slightly slower speed than I speak
> them. I used to know the alphabet in American Sign Language (I played Helen
> Keller in _The Miracle Worker_ ) and for years, I'd spell out compulsively
> with my hands words that I was thinking or saying. (I learned to drop that
> unacceptable behavior!!)
Yeah, I used to fake-type in class when I was bored in high school -
usually graffiti ( "Mark Reed was here but now he's gone / He left his
name to carry on / Those who knew him, knew him well / Those who didn't
can go to Hell." and other such fun stuff. I plead teenagerhood).
I even used to notice when I missed a "key" and backspace to correct it.
I know the fingerspelling alphabet, too, but I've never had the habit of
spelling in the air as I spoke.
> In foreign languages, I see the words written in my head before I utter
> them.
Yup.
> But what's interesting is that I also need to see them written out in
> the air when someone else is speaking, and that doesn't happen as easily.
> Aural comprehension must take place in a different section of the brain's
> language center, and for me, perfect aural comprehension of a foreign
> language is the last and hardest skill to achieve.
Absolutely. It took me forever to get to native speed in my listening
comprehension of Spanish, and it was the first skill to disappear with
disuse. Now when I turn on Spanish radio stations or television programs
they might as well be speaking Etruscan for all I can understand them.
> I suppose if I were asked to make a "raspberry" for a phoneme in a
> hypothetical foreign language whose culture accepted and encouraged the
> spray of saliva, I'd probably laugh, and feel some reluctance. But I would
> have to accept it.
That was the example that came to my mind, too. Still not disgusting,
though. :)
-Marcos
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Message: 13
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 19:59:18 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
> > I suppose if I were asked to make a "raspberry" for a phoneme in a
> > hypothetical foreign language whose culture accepted and encouraged the
> > spray of saliva, I'd probably laugh, and feel some reluctance. But I
would
> > have to accept it.
>
> That was the example that came to my mind, too. Still not disgusting,
> though. :)
messy, yes. :)
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Message: 14
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 13:47:31 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
Mark Reed/Sally Caves wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 01, 2004 at 10:58:25AM -0500, Sally Caves wrote:
> > Much "eastern" Latin American Spanish drops final "s," I find. Among
> > the
> > Puerto Ricans, I think, and also the Argentinians. (Am I correct?). So
> > that often I'll hear buena noche for buenas noches. Is it also a Cuban
> > trait? (it makes comprehension fiendish for me).
>
> Yup. It's not quite dropped, though; it's said to be "aspirated", and
> turns
> into an [h] - but for most native English speakers, a final [h] might as
> well be silent. "Hasta luego!" comes out as [,ahta'lweGo] in normal
> speech. In rapid speech I'm convinced the [h] does disappear utterly,
> and the [G] softens even more until it's an approximant instead of a
> fricative, but I have no idea how one would write that in CXS vel sim.
>
That is all true. In unstressed syllables it does tend to disappear, so
"estaba" > [e'taBa]. I recall a story read years ago that used New Mexican
dialect-- "está" was always "ta". Apparently the only area where final
(plural) -s is totally dropped (with change in the preceding vowel quality)
is Andalucia; this must have taken place in the last 50 years-- when I was
there in 1954, -s was definitely aspirated, my first and perplexing
encounter with that after years of correctly pronounced Sp. in high school
and college.
> The numbers provide lots of practice for keeping [s]s and [T]s
> straight, with entries like "sesenta y cinco", "cincuenta y siete",
> etc.
Yes, sequences of [T] and [s] are difficult; likewise [T] and [D] as in
"decidido" :-))
>
> > But I produce spoonerisms, too, in my native language. Kelen Heller.
> > (I almost typed that below!)
>
Two that are a permanent part of my vocab are "Hoobert Heever" and "James
[k]ennimore Fooper", thanks to an eccentric HS English teacher, a
Down-Easter of distinguished lineage, Harvard grad et al.
He also pronounced "drama" as ['dr&[EMAIL PROTECTED] but that didn't catch on.
> Yeah, I used to fake-type in class when I was bored in high school -
> usually graffiti...
In her mid-Alzheimerish dotage, my mother, at restaurants, would work
imaginary crossword puzzles on the table-top.........
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Message: 15
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:50:31 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
MJR> Yeah, I used to fake-type in class when I was bored in high school -
MJR> usually graffiti...
RM> In her mid-Alzheimerish dotage, my mother, at restaurants, would work
RM> imaginary crossword puzzles on the table-top.........
Not making me feel better, Roger. :)
-Marcos
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Message: 16
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 19:51:53 +0000
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
On Sunday, October 31, 2004, at 10:15 , Joe wrote:
> Pascal A. Kramm wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 06:46:48 +0000, Jan van Steenbergen
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> --- Mark J. Reed skrzypszy:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I only added that as an aside in my post, whose primary purpose
>>>> was to ask why some Germans are "ashamed" to say [T]. Feeling
>>>> ashamed about producing a phone just strikes me as odd. I still
>>>> don't understand it.
Despite the replies, it still strikes me as odd. Unfortunately, I think I
understand - but I do not like what I am understanding.
>>>>
>>> In Dutch, [T] can only be heard in the speech of people with a speech
>>> defect. And I think that's the answer to your question.
No it does not.
Fairly obviously, [T] will be heard only in the speech of those people who
have the speech impediment known as a 'lisp' in those languages which do
not have /T/. But in English, for example, [K] occurs only regularly in
the speech of those unfortunate to have a defect which prevents /s/ (or
sometimes just /sl/) being pronounced in the standard way;
but that does not make me feel at all ashamed at pronouncing Welsh /K/.
It seems to me a slightly odd mentality to claim that pronouncing English
or modern Greek _properly_ is something to be ashamed of. When the reason
given is that [T] is a mark of 'speech defect', it seems to me just a
little insulting to those members of this list who do have various
physical disfunctions.
Also, if those who always pronounce /s/ as [T] are suffering a speech
defect, does it not also follow logically that those who always pronounce
/T/ as [s] are equally suffering a speech defect? Is not the logic of this
attitude that only those who actually pronounce /s/ as [s] and /T/ as [T]
have no defect?
Indeed, the more ignorant of my fellow countrymen do believe that the
supposed inability of Germans to pronounce [T], [D] and [w] is because of
a genetic speech defect.
How I abominate these silly prejudices!
>>> Even though
>>> the effect is not the same when Dutch people speak English, many of
>>> them are hesitant to use it even there. It's like the fear to get
>>> undressed before entering a sauna, even if you know that all the
>>> others are undressed, too. ;)
Then maybe you shouldn't be taking a sauna.
>> It's exactly the same in German - either th sound can only be heard from
>> people having a speech defect. As such, the sound is very undesirable,
>> and
>> that's why I wrote a German would be rather *disgusted* by it (and
>> certainly
>> not *ashamed*).
>>
>>
>
> 'Disgusted' has extremely strong connotations. I wouldn't use it unless
> it literally made you feel nauseous.
I agree entirely with Joe. "Disgusted" does have very strong connotations
- and to someone of my generation, I regret to say, Pascal's sentiments
seem rather disturbing.
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
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Message: 17
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 19:50:58 +0000
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Advanced English + Babel text
On Sunday, October 31, 2004, at 11:15 , Pascal A. Kramm wrote:
> Here it is, my own take at an English spelling reform!
> Unlike many others, it doesn't make up some awkward far-fetched spellings,
> but rather stays close to the actual official Ipa pronunciations.
[snip]
> 1 Nau se houl wörld häd wan längwidg wis se säim wörds.
> 2 Djörniing ihstwards, men faund ä pläin in Shinar änd seteld ser.
> 3 Säi säid tu wan änaser: "Kam! Let's mäik brik änd börn it sarouli!"
> Säi used brik insted of stoun änd tar insted of mortar.
etc - the rest snipped.
..and that's not awkward and far fetched!!!!
I fail to see how using |s| to denote four _different_ phonemes, namely /s/
, /z/, /T/ and /D/ is "staying close to the actual IPA pronunciation". You
obviously have a different meaning for 'close' than I have.
Why is /dZ/ sometimes spelled |dg| as in |längwidg| and other times |dj|
as in |Djörniing|?
Also I notice that |f| is used to denote both /f/ (as in |konfjuhs|) and
/v/ (as in |häf|). And just to add to the fun, /v/ is also spelled |w| (as
in |ouwer|) and |w| can also denote /w/ (as in |wörld|)!
The RP /Q/ is spelled in three different ways:
|o| in |stopd| (where /t/ is spelled |d|); |a| in |impasibel|; |oh| in
|bikohs|
Having |säi| representing both "they" and "say" according to context is
IMHO making things worse than they are in the standard spelling.
As I see it, this is a proposal to change one set of irregularities by
another set of (apparently arbitrary) irregularities. That is hardly what
I call a _reform_.
> --
> Pascal A. Kramm, author of Choton
> official Choton homepage:
> http://www.choton.org
Ah, but where's the unofficial homepage? They're usually more interesting
:)
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
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Message: 18
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:57:31 -0500
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 13:47:31 -0500, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Mark Reed/Sally Caves wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Nov 01, 2004 at 10:58:25AM -0500, Sally Caves wrote:
>> > Much "eastern" Latin American Spanish drops final "s," I find. Among
>> > the Puerto Ricans, I think, and also the Argentinians. (Am I
>> > correct?). So that often I'll hear buena noche for buenas noches. Is
>> > it also a Cuban trait? (it makes comprehension fiendish for me).
>>
>> Yup. It's not quite dropped, though; it's said to be "aspirated", and
>> turns into an [h] - but for most native English speakers, a final [h]
>> might as well be silent. "Hasta luego!" comes out as [,ahta'lweGo] in
>> normal speech. In rapid speech I'm convinced the [h] does disappear
>> utterly, and the [G] softens even more until it's an approximant instead
>> of a fricative, but I have no idea how one would write that in CXS vel
>> sim.
>
>That is all true. In unstressed syllables it does tend to disappear, so
>"estaba" > [e'taBa].
The many YA?PTs should have showed that assertions of this kinds are mostly
wrong except for specific dialects. In Entre Ríos, Argentina, the aspiration
doesn't disappear in these specific surroundings.
>I recall a story read years ago that used New Mexican
>dialect-- "está" was always "ta". Apparently the only area where final
>(plural) -s is totally dropped (with change in the preceding vowel quality)
>is Andalucia; this must have taken place in the last 50 years-- when I was
>there in 1954, -s was definitely aspirated, my first and perplexing
>encounter with that after years of correctly pronounced Sp. in high school
>and college.
I guess it was just a different region of Andalucía.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
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Message: 19
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 20:23:59 +0000
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Advanced English + Babel text
Ray Brown wrote:
> On Sunday, October 31, 2004, at 11:15 , Pascal A. Kramm wrote:
>
>> Here it is, my own take at an English spelling reform!
>> Unlike many others, it doesn't make up some awkward far-fetched
>> spellings,
>> but rather stays close to the actual official Ipa pronunciations.
>
>
> [snip]
>
>> 1 Nau se houl wörld häd wan längwidg wis se säim wörds.
>> 2 Djörniing ihstwards, men faund ä pläin in Shinar änd seteld ser.
>> 3 Säi säid tu wan änaser: "Kam! Let's mäik brik änd börn it sarouli!"
>> Säi used brik insted of stoun änd tar insted of mortar.
>
>
> etc - the rest snipped.
>
> ..and that's not awkward and far fetched!!!!
I think the problems largely stem from his accent. They show he's not a
native speaker of English.
My main problem with such reforms is that they go from scratch, not
taking into account the rules of English spelling, even the simple
ones. Having [i:] being denoted by something other than <ee> would not
be, for instance, sensible.
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Message: 20
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 20:27:34 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Where were you trained? I learned Spanish in Southern California.
>Much "eastern" Latin American Spanish drops final "s," I find.
>Among the Puerto Ricans, I think, and also the Argentinians. (Am I
>correct?). So that often I'll hear buena noche for buenas noches.
>Is it also a Cuban trait? (it makes comprehension fiendish for me).
I, too, learned Spanish from Cubans and Puerto Ricans at SUNY
Brockport. Then I spent time in Honduras in the Peace Corps. That
rather solidified it for me. They spoke about eating the s's.
Another dialectical variation I like & have picked up is the unvoiced
alveolar trill at the end of a word. It's usually accompanied by a
hiss of air.
Charlie
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Message: 21
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:55:15 -0500
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:15:07 +0000, Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Pascal A. Kramm wrote:
>>It's exactly the same in German - either th sound can only be heard from
>>people having a speech defect. As such, the sound is very undesirable,
>>and that's why I wrote a German would be rather *disgusted* by it (and
>>certainly not *ashamed*).
>
>'Disgusted' has extremely strong connotations. I wouldn't use it unless
>it literally made you feel nauseous.
"Disgusted" was deliberately chosen. I wouldn't say however that it's as
strong as "nauseous" - if I meant that, I would've said "nauseous" in the
first place.
--
Pascal A. Kramm, author of Choton
official Choton homepage:
http://www.choton.org
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Message: 22
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 18:28:36 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
On Mon, Nov 01, 2004 at 05:55:15PM -0500, Pascal A. Kramm wrote:
> >>As such, the sound is very undesirable,
> >>and that's why I wrote a German would be rather *disgusted* by it (and
> >>certainly not *ashamed*).
>
> "Disgusted" was deliberately chosen. I wouldn't say however that it's as
> strong as "nauseous" - if I meant that, I would've said "nauseous" in the
> first place.
One may be disgusted by something involuntarily; it is an emotional
reaction, which may be overcome in time if desired. But to seemingly
rejoice in said disgust, to express it unhesitatingly, especially in
response to a stimulus as innocent as a speech sound, is bigotry of the
first order. If that's the image of yourself (and by your own choice of
general terms, Germans in general) that you wish to convey, then your
choice of words was apt. If that was not your intent, then perhaps
another word would have been better.
-Marcos
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Message: 23
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 18:39:09 -0500
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Advanced English + Babel text
On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 01:00:26 -0600, Thomas R. Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Here it is, my own take at an English spelling reform!
>> Unlike many others, it doesn't make up some awkward far-fetched spellings,
>> but rather stays close to the actual official Ipa pronunciations.
>>
>> So that you get the general idea, I will post the Babel text below:
>>
>> 1 Nau se houl wörld häd wan längwidg wis se säim wörds.
>> 2 Djörniing ihstwards, men faund ä pläin in Shinar änd seteld ser.
>
>(Referring to this page:
><http://www.choton.org/ae/spell-pron.html>)
>
>I enter into this thread with much fear and trembling, lest it become
>just the kind of flame war that spawned the AUXLANG list. So, I will
>keep my comments brief:
I wouldn't call it flame war. There was just one guy who didn't bother to
read more than the front page and then came up with completely wrong insults.
>(1) It's not clear how this is closer to the IPA (note capitalization)
So what? Do you capitalize LASER as well? And RADAR? Well? I'm sure you
don't. There's no good reason for all-caps words, they only look way ugly.
>than any number of proposed spelling reforms of English. E.g. <dg>
>or <dj> as potential forms for /dZ/, but <jh> for /Z/.
I chose "dg" because it already exists in current English. I then made "dj"
for words who were initially spelled with "j", but you could also trash this
distinction and use "dg" here as well.
> Also, there
>is not IPA symbol for /ks/, which you continue to represent as <x>.
The Ipa generally has no one char representation for affricatives.
The x, however, is generally used by many languages for "ks", so I see no
problems in using it.
>(2) You seem to think a number of sounds exist in English which in
>fact do not, at least in any of the remotely standard forms of the
>language (e.g., [OY], onsetting [kv] except in rare loans, [œ], etc.)
There are certainly many oy sounds in English, q (kv) isn't just rare loan
words, and it would be news that œ existed in English at all. Perhaps you
mean the ö by this? It is used for the /3/ sound, like "ir" in "flirt" or
"ea" in "learn".
>(3) You seem to think that some sounds that *do* exist are not worthy
>of even the separate orthographic representation they already have.
>For example, you conflate four phonemes /s/, /z/, /T/ and /D/ into
>one grapheme <s>, which, to be frank, looks like a caricature of
>foreign-speak in English. Most dialects of English have at least
>three if not four distinct back mid or low vowels: /a/, /A/, /O/,
>and /ow/. Also, all dialects have a contrast between /w/ and /v/,
>yet you conflate these as <w>, and some dialects have a phonemic
>/w_0/ in addition which you do not represent at all, or indeed
>seem to be aware of.
There's no real good reason why you would need a distinction there. If you
say "I sing a song", it is very clear that you didn't mean "I thing a thong".
Also, as English is spoke by a huge amount of non-native English speakers
(more than any other language, actually), you also have to take them into
account. Most of them don't have a "th" in their language, so it is
difficult for them. That's the reason why I abandoned it.
>(4) Why are you imposing all sorts of oddities of the German orthography
>onto English -- <ei> for /aj/, <ä> for /&/ and /e:/, and, with respect,
>most bizarrely <eu> for /oj/?
Because they're much less odd than the current English spelling.
>(5) Some of your transcriptions suggest that you ought to ask a native
>speaker of English for help: <question> is pronounced [kwEStSn=], not
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] I believe most speakers of English also have [&w], not [aw],
>yet you transcribe it with <au>. "conceived" in your Gettysburg Address
>is /kOnsivd/, not /kOnsift/, and "lives" is [lajvz], not [lajfs].
Actually it is /konsi:fd/ in my Gettysburg Address. The "v" at the end of a
word is changed to a "f" to ease pronunciation (mostly for non-native
speakers), and derived words keep this "f" to stay consistent.
>Some
>of the words you use in metadescription are either not words of English,
>such as "metapher" (correctly "metaphor" /mEt@'fOr/) or do not exist in
>the sense you use for them, such as "superfluent" which should be
>"superfluous".(I could go on and on with such errors of pronunciation
>and usage, but I said I wouldn't, so I won't.)
Apparently you don't have any proper arguments anymore, so you switched to
flaming a non-native speaker for spelling mistakes now. I'm sure this makes
you feel really great, eh?
>I'm not sure I'm understanding the intention of this "reform". If
>you want to construct a conworld in which this reform takes place,
>that's fine with me. But as is, it represents more an imposition of,
>well, the entire German language on English, which naturally fails
>to oblige you.
Well, the German orthography is certainly a hell of a lot better than the
major disaster that is the English spelling :P
(Even if they are trying to undermine this now somewhat with that insane
spelling reform to make it more illogical like English spelling...)
Also, no need to be afraid - I won't go an impose the whole "evil" German
language upon you, so you can stop trembling now. No "der, die, das"
articles for you, and no declination of verbs for person either or any other
"evil" stuff.
Just some perfectly reasonable spellings to save you from your own disaster.
--
Pascal A. Kramm, author of Choton
official Choton homepage:
http://www.choton.org
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Message: 24
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 18:53:14 -0500
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 18:28:36 -0500, Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>One may be disgusted by something involuntarily; it is an emotional
>reaction, which may be overcome in time if desired. But to seemingly
>rejoice in said disgust, to express it unhesitatingly, especially in
>response to a stimulus as innocent as a speech sound, is bigotry of the
>first order. If that's the image of yourself (and by your own choice of
>general terms, Germans in general) that you wish to convey, then your
>choice of words was apt. If that was not your intent, then perhaps
>another word would have been better.
I could now go and say something like: "How many times have I heard English
speakers saying the same or worse about umlauts? Choke on it, buddy!"
But I'm not like that, so if this really startles you that much, I'll just
say "I feel slightly annoyed by the th", ok?
--
Pascal A. Kramm, author of Choton
official Choton homepage:
http://www.choton.org
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Message: 25
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:06:25 +1300
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: How Infants Crack the Speech Code
http://science.slashdot.org/science/04/11/01/2013228.shtml?tid=134&tid=1
EARLY LANGUAGE ACQUISITION: CRACKING THE SPEECH CODE
http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/Dynapage.taf?file=/nrn/journal/v5/n11/abs/nrn1533_fs.html
Just thought this might interest people - if someone hasn't already posted this.
If so, sorry.
Wesley Parish
"Sharpened hands are happy hands.
"Brim the tinfall with mirthful bands"
- A Deepness in the Sky, Vernor Vinge
"I me. Shape middled me. I would come out into hot!"
I from the spicy that day was overcasked mockingly - it's a symbol of the
other horizon. - emacs : meta x dissociated-press
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