------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/GSaulB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
There are 3 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Hobbits spoke Indonesian!
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Advanced English + Babel text
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 05:28:05 -0500
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)
On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:44:23 +0000, Jan van Steenbergen
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> When the reason given is that [T] is a mark of 'speech defect', it
>> seems to me just a little insulting to those members of this list
>> who do have various physical disfunctions.
>
>Again, I didn't say that. What I said, is that [T], when used in a
>language that does not have it, is *perceived* as a speech defect by
>some people, myself not included, and that this perception may even
>be generalised to *all* languages by some fools, again myself not
>included).
Don't include me either! However, I wouldn't call these people 'fools',
since the reason why they generalize this view on other languages is just a
lack of knowledge of other languages. I imagine that these effects are best
to be explained in terms of peer pressure (e.g. among pupils) or in terms of
prejudices, that is, "disgusting" parts of human nature.
It's similar with the uvular [X]. People who don't speak a language with
this sound often don't like it. There are common jokes that this sound is a
throat disease and must hurt if pronounced correctly.
>> I agree entirely with Joe. "Disgusted" does have very strong
>> connotations - and to someone of my generation, I regret to say,
>> Pascal's sentiments seem rather disturbing.
>
>Unless it was merely a matter of a non-native speaker using a word
>the wrong way, I agree.
Which wouldn't surprise me, since I think this word is a typical faux ami.
The connotation it gives to me is of |dis|: 'negation', |gust|: 'like' (as
in Spanish 'gusta'); that is |disgust|: 'not-like'. I confess I was
surprised of the harsh reactions and learned only then that the main meaning
of 'disgust' is much stronger than I thought it was, corresponding rather to
German _Ekel, Abscheu_ than to _Abstoss, Widerwillen_. (Only then I realized
that I already knew the word _disgusting_ with the correct connotation!)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:30:43 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hobbits spoke Indonesian!
Quoting Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Joe wrote:
> > J Y S Czhang wrote:
> >
> > >In a message dated 10/29/2004 1:10:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Joe
> > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > >
> > >>Andreas Johansson wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>There does not seem to be any reason to totally exclude that
> > >>>possibility.
> > >>>
> > >>Except that the Austronesian languages seem to have originated from
> > >>Taiwan...
> > >>
> And are reconstructed only back to ~5000 B.C.E...
I do not see how a Taiwanese origin is relevant - no-one, I hope, would use the
fact that the IE languages appear to've originated in the Black Sea area as an
argument against the supposition that Latin might have been influenced by
Etruscan. Wherever AN originated, speakers of it eventually turned up at
Flores.
As for the temporal aspect, yes, a rather daunting chasm of time separates the
most recent evidence of H. floresiensis and the arrival of AN-speakers at the
place. Near as I've heard, however, it cannot be stated with absolute certainty
that floresiensis did not surive much longer, long enough that they were around
to meet AN-speakers coming paddling from Taiwan. That Indonesian languages
would have at some point have been influenced by whatever floresiensis may have
spoken does thus as far as I can see still belong to the realm of the possibly,
if more specifically to the province of highly unlikely.
There's also the possibility that some loans might have been conveyed from
"Floresian" to AN via whatever was spoken by pre-AN H. sapiens in Indonesia.
Andreas
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:38:55 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Advanced English + Babel text
Quoting "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >(1) It's not clear how this is closer to the IPA (note capitalization)
>
> So what? Do you capitalize LASER as well? And RADAR? Well? I'm sure you
> don't. There's no good reason for all-caps words, they only look way ugly.
If so, remove them from your reformed English spelling. While writing in
something that apparently aims to approximate standard written English,
however, please obey its spelling conventions wrt to abbreviations and
acronyms, which demand 'IPA' but 'laser'.
Moreover, the comparison of 'IPA' to 'laser' is invalid, since they're not
formations of the same kind. I'm not saying there's a lack of irregularity in
the English orthographic treatment of these matters, but right here there is
none.
Andreas
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
