------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
In low income neighborhoods, 84% do not own computers.
At Network for Good, help bridge the Digital Divide!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/EA3HyD/3MnJAA/79vVAA/GSaulB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Weekly Vocab 1 and 2 in Ayeri
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: geemblik
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Proverbs
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Conlang books?
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. OT: Minor note
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Conlang books?
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: OT: Minor note
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: OT: Re: domain names
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: [OT] conplaneteering
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Introducing myself, and several questions
From: Damian Yerrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. affixes
From: Scotto Hlad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
From: Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: affixes
From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Workshops Review #04
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
From: Stephen Mulraney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Damin
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: Damin
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: Damin
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: [OT] conplaneteering
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: Damin
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: Damin
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: PDF Creator addendum
From: Sam Drost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:44:06 +0100
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Weekly Vocab 1 and 2 in Ayeri
--- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Look what I've found ... It's (at least much of) the Weekly
> Vocabs in one file -- which reminds me to go on copying my
> own vocabulary stuff and posting it here ...
Cool. I don't recall having done it in Jovian, and
Google agrees on that, so I'm giving it a go.
> > 1. round
> > The king's hall is round.
Id aeder yh rec ix rounde.
[i '[EMAIL PROTECTED] y reC iS rund]
> > 2. everyone
> > Everyone is dancing.
Oenes saudan.
[Ajnz '[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 3. same
> > I am wearing the same shoes as the (choose appropriate
> > monarch title).
Jero ize eos xuohes ud Audu ih Rec.
['je:rA i:z ES [EMAIL PROTECTED] u dawd i reC]
Using "High King" as the appropriate monarch title.
|Ize| is from IDEM, |xuohe| from Germanic.
> > 4. breed
> > We are a breed above the commoners.
Sume a jende suobrore ei pleve.
[su:m @ jend su'bro:r e ble:v]
Literally, "We are a line superior to the common folk."
Incidentally, it ends up with a nice rhythm to it. :)
> > 5. to obey
> > They must obey us.
Muessen noe voezire.
['myss@ nAj va'zi:r]
The |noe| would be after the verb by default, but I
prefer the rhythm this way. ::ponders introducing
euphonic rules into Jovian:: ;o)
> > 6. to notice
> > I do not notice them often.
Nau eos nodo sae.
[no Es 'no:dA saj]
Same as above.
> > 7. angry
> > Now the commoners are angry.
Nun ja pleve noe saeve.
[nun j@ ble:v nAj sajv]
> > 8. to revolt (against something)
> > They are revolting against me.
Surren conner me.
['surr@ '[EMAIL PROTECTED] me:]
> > 9. to lose (win, not find)
> > My soldiers have lost.
Mi mildes haen peirte.
[mi vildz hEm bErt]
> > 10. to vote
> > The people vote against me.
Ih poubul sufraehe conner me.
[i '[EMAIL PROTECTED] su'frajC '[EMAIL PROTECTED] me:]
> > And the Advanced Section:
> >
> > 11. to opress
> > The commoners opress me! Wail of anguish!
¡Me oppriwe ja pleve! ¡We!
[mAp'pri:v j@ ble:v ve:]
> > 12. suffrage
> > This suffrage is bad for my coffer.
Id sufraehun noexa min arga.
[i dzu'frajh@ naS min arg]
> > 13. succession
>
> > 14. to abrogate
> > The line of succession has been most unfortunately
> > abrogated.
Ja jende hae fide praehise manore mou maevadu.
[j@ jend he vi:d prE'hi:z m@'no:r mu vE'va:d]
|Manore| is not related to "manière", but to MAGNOPERE.
|Mou|, on the other hand, is the part that means "in a
fashion", derived from MODO.
You know, translating the text, I got a feeling of déjà
vu. Jovian had nearly all of those words already.
Maybe I did do the exercise back then after all...
-- Christian Thalmann
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:50:30 -0500
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: geemblik
René Uittenbogaard wrote:
>I had already heard a reduction of "gegeven moment" [X@'Xev@ mo'mEnt] to
>"gevement" ['Xev@,mEnt] - a reduction from five syllables to three, but
>reducing six to three seems like pushing the limits. Are there many
>examples in other languages of reducing six syllables to three?
I can easily find examples in French:
The sentence "Je sais que tu es dedans" [EMAIL PROTECTED]@[EMAIL PROTECTED] (I
know that
you are in)
will be said [S:e.kte.d:a~] -> 7 syllables reduced in 3 = 43%
The phrase "Je ne suis pas" [EMAIL PROTECTED]@.sHi.pa] (I am not)
will be said [SpA] -> 4 syllables reduced in 1 = 25%
that's a good rate!
- Max
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:41:41 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Proverbs
In conlang@yahoogroups.com, "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
- A closed mouth catches no flies.
Italian Proverb
árgon óóson tèmi mocémi ne nóósa.
closed mouth-NOM.SG the fly-ACC.PL not it-catch.in.the.mouth.PRES
óósa = to catch in the mouth.
- A good husband is healthy and absent.
Japanese Proverb
váádun pótun sáánun ápuncöe nésa.
good husband-NOM.SG healthy away-and he-is.PRES
- A prudent man does not make the goat his gardener.
Hungarian Proverb
µíðmun µírun nùµem ÿádem tom çeerdárom çééra ne
nuvúnda.
wise man-NOM.SG his goat-ACC.SG the garden-ACC.SG cultivate-INF not
he-permit-PRES
- A wise man makes his own decisions, an ignorant man follows the
public opinion.
Chinese Proverb
µíðmun µírun nùµem söeedómi reçómi nuréça;
neµíðmun µírun tom péélðom
mínom nusécöa.
wise man-NOM.SG his own decision-NOM.PL he-decide-PRES; not-wise man-
NOM.SG the common opinion-ACC.SG he-follow-PRES
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:19:36 -0800
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Conlang books?
Are there any recent or in-progress conlang books?
I'm actually toying with the idea of converting the work I've done on
my class into an outline for a book (possibly with a subgoal of being
an intro linguistics book, possibly just a "how to make a language"
primer). I don't know of any existing projects of the sort - are there
any?
Or for that matter, anything newer than Yaguello (shudder) or Eco's
Serendipities?
- Sai
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:49:31 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OT: Minor note
While clawing through an old box of stuff, looking for an obscure software
CD, I found my copy of _Describing Morphosyntax_. It's a good day, that
treasure had been lost for months. I will be advancing more quickly in
Thagojian, Br'ga and possibly a romlang soonish.
Paul
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:49:55 -0800
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang books?
--- Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Are there any recent or in-progress conlang books?
>
> I'm actually toying with the idea of converting the
> work I've done on
> my class into an outline for a book (possibly with a
> subgoal of being
> an intro linguistics book, possibly just a "how to
> make a language"
> primer). I don't know of any existing projects of
> the sort - are there
> any?
>
> Or for that matter, anything newer than Yaguello
> (shudder) or Eco's
> Serendipities?
>
> - Sai
>
Zompist is thinking about making a print version of
the Language Construction Kit.
=====
-The Sock
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:51:23 -0800
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Minor note
--- Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> While clawing through an old box of stuff, looking
> for an obscure software
> CD, I found my copy of _Describing Morphosyntax_.
> It's a good day, that
> treasure had been lost for months. I will be
> advancing more quickly in
> Thagojian, Br'ga and possibly a romlang soonish.
>
>
Lucky! I lost mine a long time ago... I think I may
have left it at school. Isn't that just a pity?
=====
-The Sock
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 05:58:44 +0100
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Re: domain names
On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:30:15 +0100, Carsten Becker
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sunday 13 February 2005 05:05, Sai Emrys wrote:
>
> > Cheapest I've seen to date that looked at
> > all reliable, at ~$15. And hey, they support
> > UserFriendly.
>
> Did I understand you right -- $15/month just for the domain
> name?
Probably per year, especially if it's only the domain name. gandi.net
charges EUR12/year for com/net/org, so $15/year sounds in the same
league.
> I have my website hosted for EUR2/month inclusively one
> domain name (.de, you could also choose .at, .ch or .fl).
> No ads.
Which would be EUR24/year, or more expensive (though you also have web
space in the deal).
And there's no .fl; I presume you mean .li.
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Watch the Reply-To!
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 06:01:09 +0100
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] conplaneteering
On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:29:46 +0100, Carsten Becker
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> κ Virgo[1]
κ Virginis?
> a radius of 18.38x our sun and a rotation period of
> 53,000 days (cf. 25,400 days).
Jörg said our sun has a rotation period of "twenty-something days",
yet you say it's twenty-five *thousand* days?
At first I thought that might be a decimal comma, but you wrote
"18.38x" and not "18,38x".
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Watch the Reply-To!
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:01:43 -0500
From: Damian Yerrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Introducing myself, and several questions
My name is Damian, and I'm a conlanger. I've dabbled for
years, never "finishing" anything to the point that arbitrary
conversation is possible. I come to this list to ask for help
in getting past roadblocks. I've read some of the archives,
but not all 6 1/2 years of them. Here's where I want help:
LEXICAL ICONICITY
When creating the a priori lexicon for Qenya (early drafts of
Quenya), Tolkien chose sound patterns that he felt "fit" a given
meaning.
http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/vice.htm
However, I seem to have a dulled sense of aesthetics, possibly
caused by my Asperger syndrome that causes me to distrust vague
hunches. Much of the time, I can't seem to do better than creating
phonotactic rules and then randomly assigning Swadesh-list glosses
to sound patterns, possibly with the aid of a computer program.
Are there some general procedures that govern lexical innovation
in natlangs and naturalistic conlangs? Has anybody successfully
implemented ding-dong or ta-ta in their conlangs?
DEFAULT SETTINGS OF GRAMMAR
I don't want to make euroclones all the time, but I don't want to
make an unspeakable language that violates fifty-two universals
either. What structures are "easier" for the developing hominid
brain to parse? For example, do learners intrinsically prefer
object-verb order or verb-object order? What about adjective-noun
or noun-adjective? Is there any appeal to iconicity for this?
CULTURAL-PHONETIC CORRELATION
Does tendency for open or closed syllables, for softer or harder
sounds, or for tones or no tones, depend on culture? I've heard
of the Inuit and the Arabs, whose languages have fewer distinct
vowel heights and more back consonants because their harsh
environments make it painful to open the mouth to the elements
in order to produce low vowels. In addition, Tolkien's chaotic
orcs speak a phonaesthetically "harsher" language than his
lawful elves. Is such correlation the rule or the exception?
CULTURAL-GRAMMATIC CORRELATION
Likewise, are any grammatical qualities correlated to aspects
of the culture? Does an environmental or cultural constraint
correlate with an OV or VO preference, with obligate marking
of various properties of a noun or verb, or anything similar?
I can see how a more paranoid culture might lead to evidentiary
markers becoming grammaticalized; are there other examples?
SIMPLIFICATION
I understand that the lexicon can be reduced to sizes that
may initially appear absurd while retaining expressiveness.
Evidence: A conlang called Toki Pona manages to convey every
meaning one can think of in 120 basic words.
Is this true of grammar as well? For instance, in computing, the
problem called 2-SAT is not NP-complete, but 3-SAT is NP-complete.
Does this result have an analog in human language? Is it possible
to make a fully expressive language that uses two-word clauses?
Specifically, is the narrator's description of the language of
the Eloi in chapter 5 of HG Wells's _The_Time_Machine_ unnatural?
"Either I missed some subtle point or their language was
excessively simple - almost exclusively composed of concrete
substantives and verbs. There seemed to be few, if any, abstract
terms, or little use of figurative language. Their sentences
were usually simple and of two words, and I failed to convey
or understand any but the simplest propositions."
(N.B.: The description doesn't match movie Eloi by John Logan.
But then little in the book matched the movie.)
FURTHER READING
When I search for some of these topics, Google often gives me
results that look promising but say "Download this article for $30".
Once Google fails me for gratis web resources, and my local public
library's search engine fails me for print resources, what are some
good resources for learning about these subjects without spending
$500 on buying books and buying individual PDF article downloads?
Or is conlanging a rich man's hobby?
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 11
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 06:28:17 +0100
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:01:43 -0500, Damian Yerrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A conlang called Toki Pona manages to convey every
> meaning one can think of in 120 basic words.
I doubt it, but this may not be the place to argue that. (I feel that
vagueness is built into the language, and that it's nearly impossible
to be arbritrarily specific without becoming too ambiguous in the
process or importing loan words.)
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 12
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:41:28 +0900
From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
Damian Yerrick wrote:
> I understand that the lexicon can be reduced to sizes that
> may initially appear absurd while retaining expressiveness.
> Evidence: A conlang called Toki Pona manages to convey every
> meaning one can think of in 120 basic words.
Philip Newton wrote:
> I doubt it, but this may not be the place to argue that. (I feel that
> vagueness is built into the language, and that it's nearly impossible
> to be arbritrarily specific without becoming too ambiguous in the
> process or importing loan words.)
I studied Toki Pona for some time, and I agree. It is adequate for
purposes it was intended, but not beyond that.
Now, this must be the correct time to invoke the ceremonial language
Damin, 250-words conlang by Austrailians.
http://www.rickharrison.com/language/damin.html
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 13
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:39:53 -0700
From: Scotto Hlad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: affixes
I'm looking for some lists of very affixes to help me develop nouns for my
new conlang. Does anyone know of any lists of affixes that might designate
different forms of nouns?
eg.
stem + affix1 = a tool
stem + affix2 = a place.
I'm looking for the categories that the affixes would designate.
Any direction would be helpful.
Scotto
begin 666 winmail.dat
M>)\^(C4&`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>[EMAIL PROTECTED](````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <`
M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;[EMAIL PROTECTED];"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"[EMAIL PROTECTED]"``$&
M@ ,[EMAIL PROTECTED]'[EMAIL PROTECTED]<`) ``````)@$!`Y
&`"0%```B````"P`"``$````+
M`",```````,`)@``````"P`I```````#`#8``````!X`< `!````" ```&%F
M9FEX97,[EMAIL PROTECTED]<427Y&<Y5\QZO&(0"J$F_K4XA5J+ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
M# $````;````4TU44#I30T]45$] 04-#15-)1$5!3"Y#3TT```L``0X`````
M0 `&[EMAIL PROTECTED](7W)[EMAIL
PROTECTED]@$````8`````````"JE9LUO[K\1L(T*<\V9YYC"
M@ ``"[EMAIL PROTECTED]"`0D0`0```&,!``!?`0``[0$``$Q:1G6*T#6)`P`*`')C
M<&<Q,C4&,@#X"V!N9S0Q,)XU`?<"I /[EMAIL PROTECTED]: K 8'-E=# @!Q,"@'TE"H%V
M")!W:PN 9#0=#&!C`% +`PNT-"!)*"=M( D`;Q)A9R!K`A %P',#<&44``0`
M="$$(&]F('8$D'[EMAIL PROTECTED](&EX!Y%T;R#@:&5L<" 4\0$`%;"["0`6X&X(8 8Q
M%))M%> 6;@?1!:!N#P(N($2V;P>1`'!Y`B 5`&L7L'\'X!6!&:$5&!8'$/ %
M0&TX:6=H!4 !``"09V[W' `7$0:[EMAIL PROTECTED]"? %0!21=FT58Q>S/PJB"H0*@&57
M&2 >Q!5 91/P*Q7T,3P@/17P%G$&\!^_>#+S(.,+46-E'Z4>Q!/>&^#U%0!C
M'/%G!; (D!O%)1)[EMAIL PROTECTED]"&!L9!R('Z5!QQJA'3 )<&-T:0(@)P6V8A4`%K)F
M)S ?I5,%H"T"0&\>Q!'A`"O ``L``8 (( 8``````, ```````!&``````.%
M`````````P`$@ @@[EMAIL PROTECTED] ```````$8`````4H4``'UN`0`>``6 "" &
M``````# [EMAIL PROTECTED] `"P`)@ @@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
MP ```````$8`````!H4````````#``J "" &``````# [EMAIL PROTECTED]
MA0````````L`$X (( 8``````, ```````!&``````Z%`````````P`4@ @@
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ```````$8`````$(4````````#`!6 "" &``````# ````````
[EMAIL PROTECTED],`%X (( 8``````, ```````!&`````!B%````````
M"P`Q@ @@[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]"`?@/`0```! ````J
MI6;-;^Z_$;"-"G/-F>>8`@'Z#P$````0````*J5FS6_NOQ&PC0ISS9GGF (!
M^P\!````<P`````````XH;L0!>40&J&[" `K*E;"[EMAIL PROTECTED],````
M``````!.251!^;^X`0"J`#?9;@```$,Z7%=)3D1/5U-<07!P;&EC871I;VX@
M1&%T85Q-:6-R;W-O9G1<3W5T;&]O:UQO=71L;V]K+G!S= ```P#^#P4````#
M``TT_3<```(!?P`!````-0```#Q,4$)"3$%)3D-!3D=+3$9%24E(1T]%4$5%
M0T%!+G-C;W1T;T!A8V-E<VED96%L+F-O;3X``````P`&$ [EMAIL PROTECTED]<0" $`
M``,`$! ``````P`1$ `````>[EMAIL PROTECTED]&4```!)34Q/3TM)3D=&3U)33TU%
M3$E35%-/1E9%4EE!1D9)6$535$](14Q0345$159%3$]03D]53E-&3U)-64Y%
M5T-/3DQ!3D=$3T5304Y93TY%2TY/5T]&04Y93$E35%-/1D%&1DE8`````-L8
`
end
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 14
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 02:50:05 -0500
From: Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
Damian Yerrick wrote:
>My name is Damian, and I'm a conlanger.
Welcome aboard, Damian!
>Here's where I want help:
>LEXICAL ICONICITY
[...]
>Are there some general procedures that govern lexical innovation
>in natlangs and naturalistic conlangs? Has anybody successfully
>implemented ding-dong or ta-ta in their conlangs?
There are a few patterns that show up here and there (words for little
things tend towards front vowels and words for big things tend to have back
vowels in them etc etc) but they aren't hard rules and they don't stick in a
lot of places (English "big" and "small" for example are the exact reverse
of this). There's also onomatopoeia, but that's a very small part of any
lexicon.
A suggestion: if you're having difficulty generating an a priori vocabulary
that sounds right, try an 'a posteriori' language -- start with an existing
language and then go nuts with sound/grammar changes etc.
>DEFAULT SETTINGS OF GRAMMAR
>
>I don't want to make euroclones all the time, but I don't want to
>make an unspeakable language that violates fifty-two universals
>either. What structures are "easier" for the developing hominid
>brain to parse? For example, do learners intrinsically prefer
>object-verb order or verb-object order? What about adjective-noun
>or noun-adjective? Is there any appeal to iconicity for this?
EVERYBODY knows that the word and phrase order of (pick your first language)
is inherently more logical than the rest. I mean, "(phrase in your first
language)"! What could be more straightforward?
... in other words, there's no way to answer this one without hearing from a
horde of people who say the exact opposite. I personally find OV, head-final
order very easy on the brain, maybe even more so than English's (mostly) VO
structure.
>CULTURAL-PHONETIC CORRELATION
>
>Does tendency for open or closed syllables, for softer or harder
>sounds, or for tones or no tones, depend on culture? I've heard
>of the Inuit and the Arabs, whose languages have fewer distinct
>vowel heights and more back consonants because their harsh
>environments make it painful to open the mouth to the elements
>in order to produce low vowels. In addition, Tolkien's chaotic
>orcs speak a phonaesthetically "harsher" language than his
>lawful elves. Is such correlation the rule or the exception?
I'd say it's an exception. There's this stereotype that good guys go
"ellinnilathienithiethiaeaenennelli" and bad guys go "blug blag ugga chunk
jukblag zoglogga gluk". I even saw one site** that prescribed these as rules
to use in giving sounds to the language of your conculture (!). Tolkien had
an aesthetic preference in sounds and it shows in which sounds he assigned
to which cultures. But there's no reason why you MUST use his template.
(I'm prejudiced, of course; by JRRT's standards my Rhean is an "ugly"
language, but not by mine!)
A lot was snipped above; sorry I can't be of more assistance beyond my
opinions on the subjective stuff.
M
** which I can't find anywhere now. Anyone wanna own up to writing it?
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 15
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:51:16 +0900
From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: affixes
Warning: GMail. Sorry.
Scotto Hlad wrote:
> I'm looking for some lists of very affixes to help me develop nouns for my
> new conlang. Does anyone know of any lists of affixes that might designate
> different forms of nouns?
> eg.
> stem + affix1 = a tool
Some examples from my native tongue, Korean.
nal-: to fly / nalgae: wing
be-: to rest one's head on / begae: pillow
deop-: to cover / deopgae: cover
ggal-: to lay (on the floor) / ggalgae: underlay
jib-: to pick up / jibge: tongs
ji-: to bear (load) / jige: A-frame
jiu-: to erase / jiugae: eraser
mag-: to block / magae: plug
Seo Sanghyeon
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 16
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:05:24 +0900
From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
Damian Yerrick wrote:
> DEFAULT SETTINGS OF GRAMMAR
>
> I don't want to make euroclones all the time, but I don't want to
> make an unspeakable language that violates fifty-two universals
> either. What structures are "easier" for the developing hominid
> brain to parse? For example, do learners intrinsically prefer
> object-verb order or verb-object order? What about adjective-noun
> or noun-adjective? Is there any appeal to iconicity for this?
If you don't want euroclones, there's a very easy way to avoid it:
learn any non-European language!
Then my problem is that all my languages look some sort of clone
of Korean, my first language. :( All OV, agglutinative, converb...
I found that I really can't create any sounding conlang with grammatical
gender or complex verbal agreement. I just lose track of rules I made.
Seo Sanghyeon
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 17
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:02:04 +0200
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Workshops Review #04
Review #04 (covering the period from Feb 06 to Feb 12):
I put authors' names in square brackets, and projects names in figure ones.
A posteriori workshops:
- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aboriconlangs/
"based on lgs of First Nations, Black Africa, Australian Aboriginals etc."
No activity since Jan 13
- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Celticonlang/
"based on Celtic lgs"
No activity since Aug 24, 2004. Is the group dead?
- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eastasianconlangs/
"based on East Asian lgs: CJK, Indochina, India (both Aryan and Dravidic),
Siberia, Pacific Ocean etc."
Links between unrelated languages (continued).
- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/germaniconlang/
"based on Germanic lgs"
Silent
- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pieconlang/
"based on Proto-IndoEuropean"
Did PIE have /z/? Thematic vowels in PIE itself.
- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/romconlang/
"based on Romance lgs"
Where to find a good Latin primer? (continued). How far does a language have
to change until it is no longer a Romance language? [Paul Bennett] starts
his own romlang.
- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Slaviconlang/
"based on Slavic, Baltic lgs or Greek"
No activity since Dec 16, 2004
- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/uraliconlang/
"based on Uralic lgs"
No activity since Aug 25, 2004
- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/westasianconlangs/
"based on West Asian lgs: Semitic and other Afrasian, Turkic, North
Caucasian etc."
No activity since Jan 04
Other specialized workshops:
- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/neographies/ - conscripts:
Silent.
- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lostlangs/ - League of the Lost Languages -
Silent.
- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/use_your_conlang/ - conlangs in use:
Anyone ever think of making a conlang based on Nostratic? Alternative
reconstructions of PIE.
Sister groups:
- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/artificiallanguages2/
Silent.
- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/langmaker2/
Silent.
Groups in other languages:
- http://espanol.groups.yahoo.com/group/ideolengua/ - in Spanish:
Demonstrative pronouns in Ancient Greek. Declination and its loss: is it
progress? How the language is born? Languages in LOTR movie.
- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ouglopo/ - in French:
No activity since Jan 22.
- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/konlang_ru - in Russian:
Silent.
Enjoy your communication!
-- Yitzik
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 18
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 10:42:23 +0000
From: Stephen Mulraney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Introducing myself, and several questions
Damian Yerrick wrote:
> My name is Damian, and I'm a conlanger. I've dabbled for
> years, never "finishing" anything to the point that arbitrary
> conversation is possible. I come to this list to ask for help
> in getting past roadblocks. I've read some of the archives,
> but not all 6 1/2 years of them. Here's where I want help:
Greetings
> LEXICAL ICONICITY
>
> When creating the a priori lexicon for Qenya (early drafts of
> Quenya), Tolkien chose sound patterns that he felt "fit" a given
> meaning.
> http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/vice.htm
>
> However, I seem to have a dulled sense of aesthetics, possibly
> caused by my Asperger syndrome that causes me to distrust vague
> hunches. Much of the time, I can't seem to do better than creating
> phonotactic rules and then randomly assigning Swadesh-list glosses
> to sound patterns, possibly with the aid of a computer program.
> Are there some general procedures that govern lexical innovation
> in natlangs and naturalistic conlangs? Has anybody successfully
> implemented ding-dong or ta-ta in their conlangs?
It's not that Tolkien has special insight into the aesthetics of
language; it's that he has special insight into _his_ asthetics
of language. Such aesthetics are always personal, to the extent
that I find it hard to make sense of the idea of "successfully
implementing" aesthetics. I tend to use phonotactic rules & random
generation to give me a start, too, since my aesthetic inventiveness
is also pretty dim. But I try to find something that catches my
fancy in the random results, and expand on that (usually with
monomaniacal persistency).
> CULTURAL-PHONETIC CORRELATION
>
> Does tendency for open or closed syllables, for softer or harder
> sounds, or for tones or no tones, depend on culture? I've heard
> of the Inuit and the Arabs, whose languages have fewer distinct
> vowel heights and more back consonants because their harsh
> environments make it painful to open the mouth to the elements
> in order to produce low vowels.
Sounds like an urban myth. In particular, I don't see why it's
necessary to open the mouth to succesfully complete a gesture
involving making your tongue low. Bear in mind that Arabic is
only one of many languages that developed on the Arabian peninsula,
even if it's the dominant one today. If all these other languages
could be demonstated to have simple vowel systems, and we could
be reasonably sure that it's not a sprachbund phenomenon, then
maybe we might have ourselves some circumstantial evidence. But
a better reason for the low number of distinctive vowel phonemes
might be large array of consonants, which bear more functional
load in the language.
Hmm, I've read analyses of the Irish vowel system that postulate
three underlying height destinctions, the rest of the surface
complexity of the vowel system being conditioned by the local
phonetic environment. Well, it does rain a lot here.
(I know, you weren't implying simple system => harsh conditions).
> In addition, Tolkien's chaotic
> orcs speak a phonaesthetically "harsher" language than his
> lawful elves. Is such correlation the rule or the exception?
In conlangs? Might be a rule, then, since I'm sure there a lot
of Tolkien-clone conlangs out there. If you're talking about
natlanngs, I'm not sure what the example refers too.
> CULTURAL-GRAMMATIC CORRELATION
>
> Likewise, are any grammatical qualities correlated to aspects
> of the culture? Does an environmental or cultural constraint
> correlate with an OV or VO preference, with obligate marking
> of various properties of a noun or verb, or anything similar?
I don't know. As evidence against the strong form of this, I'd point
out how bilinguals in many places (e.g., Wales) use both VO and
OV languages, in more or less the same cultural milieu.
> I can see how a more paranoid culture might lead to evidentiary
> markers becoming grammaticalized; are there other examples?
I can see how a more paranoid culture might lead to evidentiary
markers becoming used; but I don't see why grammaticalisation is
likely or neccesary. Perhaps over a long time. If statements made
about other, especially public, people in the USSR were more likely
to be hedged ("... or so I hear", "... but it might not be true"),
might that have lead to grammatical hedging markers? I don't think
it did. For one thing, for grammaticalisation of forms, I guess you
need one particular form or formula to be used in most occasions.
I don't see how "free form" hedging involving whatever construction
comes to mind at the moment, would lead to grammaticalisation.
> SIMPLIFICATION
>
> I understand that the lexicon can be reduced to sizes that
> may initially appear absurd while retaining expressiveness.
> Evidence: A conlang called Toki Pona manages to convey every
> meaning one can think of in 120 basic words.
In a way completely lacking in specificity.
>
> FURTHER READING
>
> When I search for some of these topics, Google often gives me
> results that look promising but say "Download this article for $30".
> Once Google fails me for gratis web resources, and my local public
> library's search engine fails me for print resources, what are some
> good resources for learning about these subjects without spending
> $500 on buying books and buying individual PDF article downloads?
> Or is conlanging a rich man's hobby?
Well, it can be done with a pencil & paper. But you're right; knowledge
can be expensive. I know of no easy solution, but to use what you have.
Such constraints might make the result more interesting, too :-).
s.
--
Stephen Mulraney [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Klein bottle for rent ... inquire within.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 19
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:15:44 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Damin
http://www.rickharrison.com/language/damin.html
"...thuu is used for large sea-dwelling mammals such as dugongs and
turtles,..."
I'd like to pick a nit. Surely the author knows that turtles are not
mammals. I can only see this as another example of believing that
the words "animal" and "mammal" are synonymous.
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 20
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:24:15 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Damin
Quoting caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> http://www.rickharrison.com/language/damin.html
>
> "...thuu is used for large sea-dwelling mammals such as dugongs and
> turtles,..."
>
> I'd like to pick a nit. Surely the author knows that turtles are not
> mammals. I can only see this as another example of believing that
> the words "animal" and "mammal" are synonymous.
Possibly, it's meant to parse as " .. for {large sea-dwelling mammals such as
dugongs} and [for] {turtles} ...".
Andreas
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 21
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:51:57 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Damin
--- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Quoting caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> http://www.rickharrison.com/language/damin.html
>>
>> "...thuu is used for large sea-dwelling mammals such as dugongs and
>> turtles,..."
>>
>> I'd like to pick a nit. Surely the author knows that turtles are
>>not mammals. I can only see this as another example of believing ?
>>that the words "animal" and "mammal" are synonymous.
>Possibly, it's meant to parse as " .. for {large sea-dwelling
>mammals such as dugongs} and [for] {turtles} ...".
Andreas
IMHO I doubt it. Why not, then, write just that? I don't know what
happens in other English-speaking countries, but I have heard
countless times in the USA an exchange such as the following:
A: "The turtle is an animal."
B: "I thought turtles were reptiles."
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 22
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:05:04 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] conplaneteering
On Mon, Feb 14, 2005 at 06:01:09AM +0100, Philip Newton wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:29:46 +0100, Carsten Becker
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > κ Virgo[1]
>
> κ Virginis?
>
> > a radius of 18.38x our sun and a rotation period of
> > 53,000 days (cf. 25,400 days).
>
> Jörg said our sun has a rotation period of "twenty-something days",
> yet you say it's twenty-five *thousand* days?
It's definitely on the order of 25 days, not 25k.
> At first I thought that might be a decimal comma, but you wrote
> "18.38x" and not "18,38x".
I think it was just a case of inconsistently translating from decimal
comma to decimal point for the benefit of the intended audience.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 23
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:11:06 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Damin
Quoting caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> --- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Quoting caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> >> http://www.rickharrison.com/language/damin.html
> >>
> >> "...thuu is used for large sea-dwelling mammals such as dugongs and
> >> turtles,..."
> >>
> >> I'd like to pick a nit. Surely the author knows that turtles are
> >>not mammals. I can only see this as another example of believing ?
> >>that the words "animal" and "mammal" are synonymous.
>
> >Possibly, it's meant to parse as " .. for {large sea-dwelling
> >mammals such as dugongs} and [for] {turtles} ...".
>
> Andreas
>
> IMHO I doubt it. Why not, then, write just that?
Um? Because that's what they wrote; the issue is what parsing they intended.
> I don't know what
> happens in other English-speaking countries, but I have heard
> countless times in the USA an exchange such as the following:
>
> A: "The turtle is an animal."
> B: "I thought turtles were reptiles."
That's not a usage I've run across, but then I don't live in the states.
I was just pointing out it wasn't necessarily an error per se; I can easily
imagine myself writing it with the intended parsing I gave. Now, hopefully
one'd discover the ambiguity on checking, but some things always slip thru.
Andreas
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 24
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:34:16 +1100
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Damin
On 14 Feb 2005, at 11.51 pm, caeruleancentaur wrote:
> --- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Quoting caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>>> http://www.rickharrison.com/language/damin.html
>>>
>>> "...thuu is used for large sea-dwelling mammals such as dugongs and
>>> turtles,..."
>>>
>>> I'd like to pick a nit. Surely the author knows that turtles are
>>> not mammals. I can only see this as another example of believing ?
>>> that the words "animal" and "mammal" are synonymous.
>
>> Possibly, it's meant to parse as " .. for {large sea-dwelling
>> mammals such as dugongs} and [for] {turtles} ...".
>
> Andreas
>
> IMHO I doubt it. Why not, then, write just that?
Because both are correct. One's ambiguous, sure, but the ambiguity
wouldn't necessarily be noticed by the author. Even if he checked it,
he wouldn't necessarily even see the ambiguity, because you don't
always ... you see what you mean. It's why you get other people to read
your drafts.
> I don't know what
> happens in other English-speaking countries, but I have heard
> countless times in the USA an exchange such as the following:
>
> A: "The turtle is an animal."
> B: "I thought turtles were reptiles."
I certainly seem to think of mammals as the prototypical animals. I
have no real difficulty considering birds animals, but I would have to
think about whether insects are animals :) I'm not from the States.
However: it's always a case of animal becoming more specific than
traditionally defined, never mammal becoming more generic. I doubt that
the author meant to use mammal to refer to non-warm-blooded,
non-placental creatures that don't give milk or whatever an example of
a non-mammal is.
--
Tristan.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 25
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 06:59:55 -0800
From: Sam Drost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: PDF Creator addendum
Another option is to print to a postscript file and
get Ghost Script or
GSView (can't remember which one, both are free
though) and can convert
postscript to pdf.
---
Sam Drost
If you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do
is stop diggin'.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Shannon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 5:43 PM
Subject: PDF Creator addendum
> --- Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > It appears to me that the OP was asking how to
> > CREATE
> > a pdf, not how to print one or turn it into a text
> > file. To CREATE a PDF go here:
> > http://www.pdf995.com/
> >
> > --gary
> >
>
> This is a FREEWARE/SHAREWARE PDF creator with
built-in
> advertising pop-ups in the free version. To get rid
> of the advertising you can register the program for
> $9.95.
>
> --gary
>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
