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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Bilingual McGuffey Readers now available!
From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Counting words
From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Help with Japanese
From: Aaron A <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: Help with Japanese
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Help with Japanese
From: Jeffrey Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. aspects / nasal consonants / meanings
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. OT: Re: Help with Japanese
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Eng (was: Name mangling)
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
From: Geoff Horswood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: McGuffey Readers now available in Tatari Faran!
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: Help with Japanese
From: Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: Chinese family names (was Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound
Recording of Asha'ille!))
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: Eng (was: Name mangling)
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Eng (was: Name mangling)
From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: Eng (was: Name mangling)
From: Jean-FranÃois Colson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: Eng (was: Name mangling)
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:07:37 +0900
From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Bilingual McGuffey Readers now available!
Sally Caves wrote:
> Vyko
H. S. Teoh wrote:
> How is that pronounced, in IPA?
["vi ko]. According to "Teonaht-English glossary", it is "my first
word in Teonaht,
hence the oldest word".
Yes, I am learning Teonaht. Ask the author for how my study is progressing. :-)
Seo Sanghyeon
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:34:18 +0900
From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Counting words
In recent Tatari Farn McGuffey Readers thread, Roger Mills remarked:
> It has occurred to me more than once, w.r.t Tatari Faran, that your
> complements might be compared to the use of "classifiers" in counting,
> esp. in Asian languages.
> (Malay, Japanese, Chinese mentioned)
Don't blame me for using this as a chance to introduce an elaborate
system of Korean counting words. :-)
First, some samples: (Hangul and pronunciation)
ëë ë êë, ìì í ì, ëì ëì ìì, ìê ì ì, ê
ë ëë, ìë ìì ë
[namu tu k14u, coNi han caN, pVsVt tasVt soNi, sagwa se al,
k& ne ma4i, sa4am yVsVt mjVN]
Which can be translated as "two trees, one paper, five mushrooms, three
apples, four dogs, six persons", or "two stumps of trees, a sheet of paper,
five bunches of mushrooms, three grains of apples, four heads of dogs,
six names of persons".
Word order is always "things to be counted", "number", and then
"counting unit".
Flower and grape are counted in same unit as mushroom ([soNi]). Seed
and rice, also egg are counted as apple ([al]). Most animals are counted
in same unit ([ma4i]), but horses are counted in [p_hil]. Oops, that's not
completely true, cattles may be counted in [gjV4i].
Some oddities: house, palanqueen, bedquilt, ginseng is counted in same
unit, [c_h&]. Sword, gun, but also pen (rather, writing brush) is counted in
same unit, [ca4u]. Vegetables and grass are counted in [p_hogi]. Age of
person is counted in [sal]. Rooms are counted in [k_han]. There are
specific units to count cuttlefish, octopus, mackerel. Generic counting
unit is [g&].
I once saw an entire dictionary devoted to these stuffs in the bookstore.
Diachronically, it seems there weren't *this* many counting words in
Middle Korean around 15th century. It seems more and more counting
units, especially loans from Chinese, were added one by one, until
somewhat in 19th century. Interestingly, Modern Korean is slowly losing
all these complexities, substituting [g&] for specific units in more cases.
Seo Sanghyeon
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 22:28:32 -0500
From: Aaron A <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Help with Japanese
Well,
Are you serious guys? This is the sound of snickering. It seems you all may
have had your nose in the textbooks for too long. Breath the reviving air of
society for a few days.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 19:43:42 -0800
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Help with Japanese
On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 22:28:32 -0500, Aaron A <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: Constructed Languages List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Poster: Aaron A <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Help with Japanese
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Well,
>
> Are you serious guys? This is the sound of snickering. It seems you all may
> have had your nose in the textbooks for too long. Breath the reviving air of
> society for a few days.
>
What are you talking about?
--
And they don't give the answers at the end of the test
So you can't simply stand there and hope for the best
So wake me up at the border when we reach Mexico
I'll tell you a secret I don't even know...
King of the Jailhouse - Aimee Mann
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 23:50:52 -0500
From: Jeffrey Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Help with Japanese
On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 19:43:42 -0800, B. Garcia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 22:28:32 -0500, Aaron A <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> -------------- Information from the mail header ---------------
>> Sender: Constructed Languages List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Poster: Aaron A <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Subject: Re: Help with Japanese
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Well,
>>
>> Are you serious guys? This is the sound of snickering. It seems you all
>> may have had your nose in the textbooks for too long. Breath the
>> reviving air of society for a few days.
>
>What are you talking about?
Troll, of the nonconculture variety???
>--
>And they don't give the answers at the end of the test
>So you can't simply stand there and hope for the best
>So wake me up at the border when we reach Mexico
>I'll tell you a secret I don't even know...
>
>King of the Jailhouse - Aimee Mann
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 22:40:28 -0700
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mar 9, 2005, at 9:07 PM, Andreas Johansson wrote:
>> Joe suggested eng, but, AFAIK, it doesn't have an uppercase form, and
>> it's riskier in electronic form than is ñ.
>>
> It is riskier, but it also has an uppercase form!
It actually has _two_ uppercase forms: one that looks like a large lowercase
eng, and one that looks like a capital N with the same hook as eng.
*Muke!
--
website: http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt: http://kohath.deviantart.com/
FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 00:21:31 -0500
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: aspects / nasal consonants / meanings
In my latest scketch, the one I'm working on, I tought of having the aspects
indicated by a clitic
It would usually be pasted to the verb but it would go on the adverb when
there would have one making a kind of inflected adverb
Considering the fact I want it to be natural, do you think it is too weird
to have adverbs that take the aspect inflection in place of the verb? Are
there languages where adverbs inflect or agree with something?
___________
Because every consonant may be nasalized, would it be possible to have nasal
affricates?
/nZ~)/ or maybe /dZ)~/ would be the nasal equivalent of /dZ)/
It is probably possible, just dont know if it's called affricate
Are there such sounds in natlangs?
___________
Are there natlangs that dont distingish verbs like "to eat" and "to drink"
and link them in a single word?
"to eat" and "to drink" are similar and are only different by the fact they
apply on different types of things
But the meaning may be indicated by the context
Or do some natlangs derive these two words from the same root with an affix
for "liquid" and another for "solid" or "water" and "food"
or that distinct more types of drinking and eating with suffixes or
independant words for "water", "fruit", "medication/drug", "blood",
"meat"...
- Max
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Message: 8
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 22:43:16 -0800
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OT: Re: Help with Japanese
On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 23:50:52 -0500, Jeffrey Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Troll, of the nonconculture variety???
Apparently so. Well, Aaron, if you'd like to have a good time, call me
up, i can give you a *good* whiff of "society" :)
--
And they don't give the answers at the end of the test
So you can't simply stand there and hope for the best
So wake me up at the border when we reach Mexico
I'll tell you a secret I don't even know...
King of the Jailhouse - Aimee Mann
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 06:52:52 +0000
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Eng (was: Name mangling)
On Wednesday, March 9, 2005, at 07:07 , Andreas Johansson wrote:
[snip]
> Joe suggested eng, but, AFAIK, it doesn't have an uppercase form, and it'
> s
> riskier in electronic form than is Ã.
Eng certainly has an upper case form. It's like the ordinary upper case N
with the 'eng tail'. Eng is actually used in some natlang orthographies.
But you're sure right that it's riskier in electronic form than à and Ã.
Upper case eng is supposed to be Unicode Hex U+014A, namely Å
But my mailer displays it as a sort of lower case _h_, which is quite
wrong, and so do most of the many, many fonts on my machine; only Cardo
and Zapfino display it correctly.
So if you want to see what the symbol really looks like, read my mail in
Cardo or Zapfino :)
Personally, I find this state of affairs both frustrating and inexcusable.
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
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Message: 10
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 01:57:02 -0500
From: Geoff Horswood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
More XinkÃtlan names:
- Sally Caves: sÃli kÃibes /'sa:.li: 'kej.bEs/
- Roger Mills: rÃcer mÃlis /'rOS.er @mI:l.Is/
- Philip Newton: pÃlip nÃtan /'pIl.Ip 'nu:.tan/
- Teoh: tuoh /two:h/
- JÃrg Rhiemeier: Ãrug (possibly Ãruq) hirÃmer /'Ur.Ug/ or /'Ur.Uq
hI'ri:.mer/
- Christian Thalmann: kicitÃn tÃlman /kIS.I'ta:n 'ta:l.man/
- David Peterson: dÃbid pitÃrusun /'dE:.bId pi:'ta:r.U.su:n/
- Benct Philip Jonsson: bÃnut pÃlip cÃnsun /'bEn.Ut 'pIl.Ip 'SUn.sUn/
- Thomas Weir: tÃmas uÃr /'to:.mas wi:r/
- Carsten Becker: kÃsutan bÃqer /'ka:.sU.ta:n 'bE.qEr/
- Renà Uittenbogaard: rÃna uÃtanbogar /'ri:.na wi:.tan'bo:.gar/
- Isaac Penzev: Ãcaq pÃnzeb /'i:.Saq 'pEn.zEb/
- Steg Belsky: sÃteg bÃluki /'su:.tEg 'bEl.U.ki:/
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Message: 11
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 02:02:05 -0500
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: McGuffey Readers now available in Tatari Faran!
----- Original Message -----
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Vyko!
> Have you ever received emails in Teonaht?
Yup. On several occasions over the years. To the latest sender, I
responded that it felt so weird not to be in control of your own invented
language. There it is with a mind behind it that is not your own, and words
you recognize, but have to look up again because you've forgotten them.
This last sender was particularly good.
Gotta run. It's two in the morning. By run I mean run to bed.
Sally
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Message: 12
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 09:20:32 +0100
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:49:17 +0100, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The _Ã_ has been in all along. I'm not terribly happy with it either - it's
> the
> only diacritic'd letter, for a start - but the realistic alternative is using
> 'k' or 'q' for [N], either of which seems overly perverse to me
ANADEW: |q| is [Ng] in Fijian IIRC.
On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:35:46 +0100, Carsten Becker
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> - Philip Newton: Vilim Nyutan ["vilim njut_dAn]
Meh :) I'm not particularly fond of initial [v] -- though in Klingon,
the closest I'd get would also be vIlIp (which happens to be its own
SAMPA transcription). From its form, it could be a verb: "I ....
him/her/it/them"; however, no word |lIp| is currently known. |vI'lIp|
(pronounced [vI?lIp]) might be a more "Klingon" form of the name,
since in general, Klingon likes CVC syllables, counting [?] as a
consonant.
My last name would probably be |yu'tIn| [ju?tIn], though I'm also
rather fond of the spelling pronunciation |newton| [newton] due to its
containing the moderately-rare-in-the-natlangs-I-know diphthong [ew].
On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:49:41 -0800, H. S. Teoh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 08, 2005 at 08:17:54PM +0100, Philip Newton wrote:
> > On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:16:59 +0100, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > > "Yuansun" looks like it could be a Chinese name. Is it?
> >
> > So it appears; Google for it and you'll see it appears in connection
> > with a couple of Chinese family names. Pretty rare, though, if Google
> > frequency is any indication.
> [...]
>
> FYI, Chinese family names are monosyllabic. Without exception.
Um, that doesn't jibe with what I've read -- which indicates that
while two-syllable family names (such as Ouyang or Sima) are rare,
they're not nonexistent.
And what I meant with my statement was "I saw 'Yuansun' next to a
single-syllable word which looked like a Chinese family name to me,
implying to me that 'Yuansun' was the given name of that person and,
hence, a 'real' Chinese [given] name."
> > And pronounce something like /[EMAIL PROTECTED]/, I'd guess.
> [...]
>
> More likely [HyEnsun].
Thanks for that correction.
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Watch the Reply-To!
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Message: 13
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 03:21:22 -0500
From: Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Help with Japanese
Jeffrey Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> Well,
>>>
>>> Are you serious guys? This is the sound of snickering. It seems you all
>>> may have had your nose in the textbooks for too long. Breath the
>>> reviving air of society for a few days.
>>
>>What are you talking about?
>
>Troll, of the nonconculture variety???
Took about twenty seconds to discover that "Help with Japanese" is a
six-year-old thread. I think Genius here was browsing our archives (for
whatever reason; he's clearly WAY above our nonsense, right?) without
noticing how old of a message he was responding to.
M
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Message: 14
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 09:30:02 +0100
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Chinese family names (was Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound
Recording of Asha'ille!))
On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:23:47 +0100, Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Philip Newton wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:16:59 +0100, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>"Yuansun" looks like it could be a Chinese name. Is it?
> >
> > So it appears; Google for it and you'll see it appears in connection
> > with a couple of Chinese family names. Pretty rare, though, if Google
> > frequency is any indication.
>
> Iss there any online list of Chinese family names?
Yes.
One such list is at http://zhongwen.com/ ; click on "Chinese surnames"
in the middle column of the main frame, in the section "Vocabulary".
Another list is at http://www.chinapage.com/biography/lastname.html .
> > And pronounce something like /[EMAIL PROTECTED]/, I'd guess.
>
> [HAnsun]. [EMAIL PROTECTED] would be Yuensun.
There is, to the best of my knowledge, no syllable written |yuen| in
Pinyin, which is what I thought we were using. Also, I think that
[y]/[H] is followed by [E] (or [EMAIL PROTECTED]), not [A], which is what can
come
after [u] -- compare, say, chuan and quan.
Maybe you're thinking of Wade-Giles? I think it would be written
"YÃen-Sun" there.
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Watch the Reply-To!
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Message: 15
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 09:35:45 +0100
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Eng (was: Name mangling)
On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 06:52:52 +0000, Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Eng certainly has an upper case form. It's like the ordinary upper case N
> with the 'eng tail'. Eng is actually used in some natlang orthographies.
>
> But you're sure right that it's riskier in electronic form than à and Ã.
> Upper case eng is supposed to be Unicode Hex U+014A, namely Å
>
> But my mailer displays it as a sort of lower case _h_, which is quite
> wrong, and so do most of the many, many fonts on my machine; only Cardo
> and Zapfino display it correctly.
>
> So if you want to see what the symbol really looks like, read my mail in
> Cardo or Zapfino :)
I saw it like this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/pne/uppercase-eng.png . I don't
know which font my mailer chose; the body of the mail was Arial,
however.
It doesn't look like the Unicode reference glyph (capital N with eng
tail), but not like a lower-case h, either -- more like an incomplete
capital D or, well, a capital version of lower-case eng (but with no
descender).
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Watch the Reply-To!
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Message: 16
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:00:19 +0100
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
Christian Thalmann wrote:
> Benct Philip Jonsson: Traditionally Beondicte [bEn'diCt],
> presuming the name is derived from Benedict.
It is. My pet theory is that it is derived from a medieval
abbreviated spelling rather than an actual contraction in
speech, since in the facsimile where I picked up my odd
spelling it was actually spelled _beÃct_, with an abreviation
stroke over |enc|. It may of course have been the scribe's
way of showing off that he knew the Latin form. BTW the
name also occurs as _BÃncter_ complete with an Old Swedish
nominative ending. Let's all be glad that I didn't adopt
that spelling when I was 22!
--
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
(Tacitus)
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Message: 17
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:11:36 +0900
From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Eng (was: Name mangling)
On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 06:52:52 +0000, Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Upper case eng is supposed to be Unicode Hex U+014A, namely Å
>
> But my mailer displays it as a sort of lower case _h_, which is quite
> wrong, and so do most of the many, many fonts on my machine; only Cardo
> and Zapfino display it correctly.
It looks like the following image on my screen, which I think is correct.
http://sparcs.kaist.ac.kr/~tinuviel/tmp/eng.png
But I have neither Cardo nor Zapfino font here. In fact, I haven't
heard of those
fonts... Not sure what my font is.
Seo Sanghyeon
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Message: 18
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:19:28 +0900
From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:49:41 -0800, H. S. Teoh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> FYI, Chinese family names are monosyllabic. Without exception.
On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 09:20:32 +0100, Philip Newton
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Um, that doesn't jibe with what I've read -- which indicates that
> while two-syllable family names (such as Ouyang or Sima) are rare,
> they're not nonexistent.
Don't forget Zhuge Liang, the Battle of Red Cliff! His name is written èè
ä,
and he had a rare two-character family name.
If you don't know what I am talking about, read "Romance of the Three Kingdoms".
Seo Sanghyeon
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Message: 19
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:25:09 +0100
From: Jean-FranÃois Colson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Eng (was: Name mangling)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Newton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: Eng (was: Name mangling)
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 06:52:52 +0000, Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>> Eng certainly has an upper case form. It's like the ordinary upper case N
>> with the 'eng tail'. Eng is actually used in some natlang orthographies.
>>
>> But you're sure right that it's riskier in electronic form than à and Ã.
>> Upper case eng is supposed to be Unicode Hex U+014A, namely Å
>>
>> But my mailer displays it as a sort of lower case _h_, which is quite
>> wrong, and so do most of the many, many fonts on my machine; only Cardo
>> and Zapfino display it correctly.
>>
>> So if you want to see what the symbol really looks like, read my mail in
>> Cardo or Zapfino :)
>
> I saw it like this:
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/pne/uppercase-eng.png . I don't
> know which font my mailer chose; the body of the mail was Arial,
> however.
>
> It doesn't look like the Unicode reference glyph (capital N with eng
> tail), but not like a lower-case h, either -- more like an incomplete
> capital D or, well, a capital version of lower-case eng (but with no
> descender).
>
Apparently, there are two competing forms for the uppercase eng.
Just have a look at the Unicode standard.
http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0100.pdf, bottom of page 5
014A Å LATIN CAPITAL LETTER ENG
* glyph may also have appearance of large form of the small letter.
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 20
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:30:22 +1100
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Eng (was: Name mangling)
On 10 Mar 2005, at 5.52 pm, Ray Brown wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 9, 2005, at 07:07 , Andreas Johansson wrote:
> [snip]
>> Joe suggested eng, but, AFAIK, it doesn't have an uppercase form, and
>> it'
>> s
>> riskier in electronic form than is Ã.
>
> Eng certainly has an upper case form. It's like the ordinary upper
> case N
> with the 'eng tail'. Eng is actually used in some natlang
> orthographies.
>
> But you're sure right that it's riskier in electronic form than à and
> Ã.
> Upper case eng is supposed to be Unicode Hex U+014A, namely Å
>
> But my mailer displays it as a sort of lower case _h_, which is quite
> wrong, and so do most of the many, many fonts on my machine; only Cardo
> and Zapfino display it correctly.
>
> So if you want to see what the symbol really looks like, read my mail
> in
> Cardo or Zapfino :)
>
> Personally, I find this state of affairs both frustrating and
> inexcusable.
Personally, I don't think it's fair to say that a particular glyph form
is wrong, unless all the people who use the character dislike the form.
Capital Eng is not defined by any script which mandates particular
glyph styles, unlike lowercase eng. Even if it were, no-one thinks it's
wrong that there's two possible glyphs for g, but the IPA says only one
form is correct. The enlarged eng form is commonly used, is not
confuseable for some other symbol, and is clearly associated with the
lowercase eng form (though the N-hook form is too, by virtue of its
similarity to N~n).
(FWIW, The font I'm using, which I think is Bitstream Vera Sans Mono
(tho the Eng glyph might come from some other similar fixed-width font)
uses a capital N-style Eng.)
--
Tristan.
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Message: 21
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:31:14 +0100
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
H. S. Teoh wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 09, 2005 at 10:14:00PM -0000, Christian Thalmann wrote:
> [...]
>
>>Teoh: Assuming it's really pronounced [to~:], it would end up
>> as Ton [tAn]. That's how French [A~ O~] are treated in
>> Jovian.
>
> [...]
>
> It's variously pronounced [t_hjo:], [t_hjoh], [tjA~], or [tsaN],
> depending on the language and the mangling scheme. :-) But definitely
> not [to~:].
Blame my bad memory. Then anyway it's _Cang_ /ts\6N/ in Sohlob.
May one ask what H.S. stands for? Most SohloÃan have
double-barrelled names. My own name is of course translated.
I'm Nyon Ozhwofd /,JQn Qz'WQvd/, which sounds like I was a
member of one of those unworldly sects that the SohloÃan
authorities view with such suspicion! It is in the Kidilib
dialect BTW, since I prefer that form, so I guess my SohloÃan
self walks around at the feet of the mountains thinking
unworldly thoughts...
--
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
(Tacitus)
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Message: 22
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:35:39 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
Quoting Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Andreas Johansson wrote:
> >>>Bent Feilip Unson [bEnt fejlIp UnsOn] (you may want to spell it FÃlip
> >>
> >>[fejlIp])
> >>
> >>Feilip is OK, not least since it is Fei in Mandarin.
> >
> >
> > I'm to infer you don't like Bent and Unson? :)
>
> I don't like Bent. Is /bEN/ or /bENan/ possible?
No. There is no /N/. You could have _Benkt_ [bENkt] or _Bengan_ [bENgan] (where
the [N]'s represent /n/).
Yargish could have Vangan [vaNan] instead of Vant, if you prefer. Meghean could
have BeÃan [beNan] instead of Bent.
> > I suppose the orthographic impression of spelling /ej/ as |Ã| in Tairezan
> is
> > roughly equivalent to that of spelling /f/ as |ph| in Swedish.
>
> In that case I of course have to go for FÃlip! ;)
I knew you would! ;)
Quoting "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Wed, Mar 09, 2005 at 10:14:00PM -0000, Christian Thalmann wrote:
> [...]
> > Teoh: Assuming it's really pronounced [to~:], it would end up
> > as Ton [tAn]. That's how French [A~ O~] are treated in
> > Jovian.
> [...]
>
> It's variously pronounced [t_hjo:], [t_hjoh], [tjA~], or [tsaN],
> depending on the language and the mangling scheme. :-) But definitely
> not [to~:].
Well, how do *you* pronounce it?
The first two would respectively:
Tshà [tSo:] (Tairezazh)
Teo [tSo] / Teosh [tSoh], Meghean
Chu [tSM] (Yargish)
while [tjA~] ought:
TshÃn [tSA:n]
TeaÃh [tSaG~]
Chang [tSaN]
and [tsaN]:
Tsan [tsan] (or, if you prefer, Tsang [tsaNg])
Teaà [tSaN]
Chang [tSaN]
DrÃas/Andrehas/Angrias
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Message: 23
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:01:16 +0200
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
On Mar 10, 2005, at 12:14 AM, Christian Thalmann wrote:
> Steg Belsky: What the heck kind of name is that anyway? ;)
> If it's a variant of Stephen, see last post.
> Otherwise, Tsege [tse:g] or maybe Tsec [tseC]. Then
> again, Jervans are capable to pronounce initial [St]
> thanks to German influence, so maybe Stec [SteC] is
> possible, albeit clearly foreign. If you prefer [E],
> how about Tseoc [tsEx]. Belsky: Beosci ['bESki].
> -- Christian Thalmann
Yes, it is a variant (nickname) of Stephen!
Hence the way i sign my emails to the list ;) .
From the referenced "last post":
> Stephanie: Tsevaena [tse'vajn]. You're lucky, the male
> version can get rather ugly: From Tsevane [tse'va:n]
> over Tseffan ['tseff@(n)] to the abominable Tseompfe
> [tsEmpf]. Tseffe/Tseffa are rather popular modern
> names on that basis.
[tsEmpf] ?!
What a wor(l)d... :P
I'd like to join in, but it wouldn't be very interesting since
Rokbeigalmki has a pretty large phonemic inventory.
-Stephen (Steg)
"Let them come.
There is one dwarf yet in Moria who still draws breath."
~ gimli son of gloin, LotR:FotR (movie version, at least)
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Message: 24
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:40:54 +0200
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
On Mar 10, 2005, at 8:57 AM, Geoff Horswood wrote:
> More XinkÃtlan names:
> - Steg Belsky: sÃteg bÃluki /'su:.tEg 'bEl.U.ki:/
How come the stress is on the epenthetic vowel that's not there in the
original?
-Stephen (Steg)
"Let them come.
There is one dwarf yet in Moria who still draws breath."
~ gimli son of gloin, LotR:FotR (movie version, at least)
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Message: 25
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:22:47 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)
This should've gone to the list ... thanks Philip!
Andreas
Quoting Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Was this meant for the list?
>
> If so, I suggest you forward it there, since I'd like to reply to it
> there; otherwise, I'll reply to this copy. --Ph.
>
>
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:54:24 +0100, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > Quoting Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >
> > > On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:49:17 +0100, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > > > The _Ã_ has been in all along. I'm not terribly happy with it either -
> it's
> > > the
> > > > only diacritic'd letter, for a start - but the realistic alternative is
> > > using
> > > > 'k' or 'q' for [N], either of which seems overly perverse to me
> > >
> > > ANADEW: |q| is [Ng] in Fijian IIRC.
> >
> > I know, and it's [N] in my now effectively defunct conlang Kalini Sapak
> (which,
> > perhaps more obnoxiously, also uses 'j' for [G]). Doesn't mean I don't
> think
> > it's overly perverse!
> >
> > > On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:35:46 +0100, Carsten Becker
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > - Philip Newton: Vilim Nyutan ["vilim njut_dAn]
> > >
> > > Meh :) I'm not particularly fond of initial [v] -- though in Klingon,
> > > the closest I'd get would also be vIlIp (which happens to be its own
> > > SAMPA transcription). From its form, it could be a verb: "I ....
> > > him/her/it/them"; however, no word |lIp| is currently known. |vI'lIp|
> > > (pronounced [vI?lIp]) might be a more "Klingon" form of the name,
> > > since in general, Klingon likes CVC syllables, counting [?] as a
> > > consonant.
> > >
> > > My last name would probably be |yu'tIn| [ju?tIn], though I'm also
> > > rather fond of the spelling pronunciation |newton| [newton] due to its
> > > containing the moderately-rare-in-the-natlangs-I-know diphthong [ew].
> >
> > I assume you pronounce your given name [fIlIp]?
> >
> > In Meghean, that could be closely approximated as Philip [Pilip]. "Newton"
> would
> > become Nuton [nuton] (with the quality of the second vowel picked from the
> > spelling more than anything else; Meghean doesn't have schwas).
> >
> > Tairezazh would make it Filip [fIlIp]. Or, since they got to hear of BP
> first,
> > they'd assume it's the same name and call you Feilip/FÃlip [fejlip] too.
> Your
> > family name would > Nuten [EMAIL PROTECTED], or possibly Nouton
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Yargish: Firip Nutan.
> >
> > Andreas
> >
>
>
> --
> Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
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