------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> In low income neighborhoods, 84% do not own computers. At Network for Good, help bridge the Digital Divide! http://us.click.yahoo.com/EA3HyD/3MnJAA/79vVAA/GSaulB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~->
There are 25 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest: 1. Re: long consonants From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 2. Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!) From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 3. Re: Proto-Semitic (was Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 4. Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!) From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 5. Re: Proto-Semitic (was Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 6. Article on Artificial Languages From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 7. Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!) From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 8. Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!) From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 9. Re: long consonants From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 10. Re: Article on Artificial Languages From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 11. Re: long consonants From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 12. Re: long consonants From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 13. Re: long consonants From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 14. Re: long consonants From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 15. Re: long consonants From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 16. Re: Proto-Semitic (was Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 17. Re: Proto-Semitic (was Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 18. Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!) From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 19. Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!) From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 20. Re: long consonants From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 21. Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!) From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 22. Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!) From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 23. Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!) From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 24. Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!) From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 25. Re: Chinese family names (was Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)) From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 1 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:34:17 +0900 From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: long consonants > I'd want to ask if much languages distinguish long and short consonants > like if /na/ and /n:a/ would have different meanings as it would be of /na/ > and /na:/ Doesn't English have this distinction? I can't think of a minimal pair, but /n/ in "penknife" is longer than /n/ in "penny". No? Oops, this is not a bait to start YAEPT. Seo Sanghyeon ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 01:52:11 -0000 From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!) --- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > If [to~:] is correct, the most natural adaption to Meghean would be _Toñh_ > [toG~], I suppose. [G~]? That's rather original, albeit Orkish-sounding to me... kinda like the velar analogon to /F/. I liked it better when Meghean nasals didn't lenit. And since we're at it, I'm also not fond of the looks of ñ, though I believe you've had it before. But it's your lang after all... -- Christian Thalmann ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 03:38:28 +0100 From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Proto-Semitic (was Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) --- Rob Haden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Sorry, what's the difference between laminal and > apical? I believe apicals are pronounced with the tip of the tongue, while laminals are pronounced with the broad surface of the tongue. English and German both have apical [s] and [z]; I believe some dialects of Spanish have a laminal [s], which gives the silibants a 'lispy' feel. Basque, IIRC, tells between both laminal and apical [s] as phonemes. 'Retroflex' can be an extreme case of apicality, by the way. In one conlang sketch, I had an apical velar fricative; a 'retroflex' [x], with the tip of the tongue approaching the velum (I have a very flexible tongue). Can't think of any natlangs with that phoneme. > If there was */ts/, */dz/, and */s/, then we could > say that */K/ became /S/ in Arabic (rather than > merging with /S/). For my current conlang, I tried to get away with using /shiyn/ for [K], since IIRC, it was possibly [K]anyways at one point. Didn't 'look' right, so I decided to use /saad/ (using the logic that /saad/ is a mere variant of /siyn/, which is an easy and typical step to make, since I don't expect the speakers of my language to be expert phonologists). > However, the South Arabian languages have both /K/ > and /S/. Perhaps */s/ > /S/, */ts/ > /s/, and > */dz/ > /z/ there. But what would cause /s/ to > become /S/? Palatalization? But in a root language like the Semitics, it would mean that [s] and [S] would alternate; it would stand to reason that other consonants would fall under the influence of palatalization as well; i.e., [z] becoming [Z] or [dZ] and so on. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse when I say that laminal [s] can easily become postalveolar [S]; that's what happened in German, at least. > I don't mean to sound pretentious, but I wonder if > the traditional interpretation of written Akkadian > is a little incorrect. Not only does Akkadian show > |š| in the S-stems, where Arabic shows ?- and > Hebrew h-, but it also has |š| in the personal > pronouns: šu: 'he', ši: 'she' (cf. Arabic > huwa 'he', hiya 'she'). So the question is, did > Akkadian retain an earlier /S/ where Arabic and > Hebrew did not? Good question. I'm going to have to look into that; like I don't have enough to think about already. Today, at work, I was trying to figure out what an object with negative mass would be like. I lead a very rich inner life :). The alternation between [h] in Hebrew and [s/S] in Akkadian makes some sense ([s] leniting to [h] is pretty common in languages, IIRC), but how does Arabic get away with [?]? Then again, it could be that Arabic dropped [h] under certain circumstances (in most dialects, it's a voiced glottal approximant, and therefore, very weak indeed) and replaced it with [?], since words in Arabic cannot begin with an empty onset. I heard it posited that the definite article /al-/ was /*hal-/ at some point in both Hebrew and Arabic, and the two langauges just dropped a different phomene in each of their respective cases. Makes some sense, at least... ___________________________________________________________ Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - Jetzt mit 250MB Speicher kostenlos - Hier anmelden: http://mail.yahoo.de ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 03:33:54 -0000 From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!) Many of these names have a traditional form in Jovian that has undergone the Grand Master Plan, while more recent phonetic imports are equally possible. Henrik: Hendric ['hendriC] Yep, I'm afraid the Jervans would hear your [R] as an /r/ and treat it that way. No Jervan would be caught dead pronouncing [nr] without an epenthetic [d]. So sue them. :) It's probably even a rather common name in Jervaine; they like names in -ic, like Rodric ['ro:driC] "Roderick", Uoric ['[EMAIL PROTECTED] "Ulrich", Lubic ['lu:biC] "Ludwig" and Haeric/Hendric ['hajriC 'hendriC] "Heinrich". Björn: Biorne, [birn], Boerne [barn] Arthaey: Arté [EMAIL PROTECTED]'te:], [,ar'te:]; Arteje [EMAIL PROTECTED]'te:j], [,ar'te:j] Angosii: Angosi [EMAIL PROTECTED]'go:zi] or Angossi [EMAIL PROTECTED]'gAssi], depending on the voicedness of the s. Rachel: Traditionally Rahel [ra:l] and Raele [rajl]. From English: Retxel ['[EMAIL PROTECTED] Robert: Traditionally Roverde [rA'vErd] and Rourde [rurd]. From English: Rovver ['[EMAIL PROTECTED], very unconventional. Geminate v doesn't appear in actual Jovian. Roland: Traditionally Rolande [rA'land] or Rolan ['ro:l@(n)]. Rudi: Ruodi ['[EMAIL PROTECTED] or Ruodul ['[EMAIL PROTECTED]@l] as nicknames of Rudouve [ru'dowv]. Lisa: Lisa [li:z] or ['li:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Proper names are the last bastion of pronounced final |a| in Jovian. Sometimes it is even fully articulated as [a], but that has a definite air of snobbery. As such, it is very popular among the aristocracy. Stephanie: Tsevaena [tse'vajn]. You're lucky, the male version can get rather ugly: From Tsevane [tse'va:n] over Tseffan ['tseff@(n)] to the abominable Tseompfe [tsEmpf]. Tseffe/Tseffa are rather popular modern names on that basis. Andreas Johansson: Traditionally André or (archaic-ish) Andreja. Johansson would be pronounced ['jo:[EMAIL PROTECTED] or maybe ['jo:n,tsAn] in analogy to the wildly popular first name Johan [jo:n]. John Cowen: Johan [jo:n], obviously. There's also the variants Jandse [jandz] and Jondse [jAndz] from Johannes. Cowen: Maybe Cauven ['[EMAIL PROTECTED] Incidentally, I always thought you were pronounced /[EMAIL PROTECTED]/. Barry Garcia: Is that derived from Bernhard? In that case, Bernarde [bEr'nard], the alteration Bendrade [ben'dra:d], Beorran ['bErr@(n)], or Benne [bEn] for short. Garsija [EMAIL PROTECTED]'si:] or even [gar'si:a] for the language-conscious. Paul Bennett: Traditionally Paule [pawl]. Rather straight- forward, I'm afraid. You can have people call you Pulloc ['[EMAIL PROTECTED] informally, though. ;) This doesn't make sense, but my father used to be called Pulock in school, so there. :)) As for Christian, the straight Jovification would be Cristsane [kriS'tsa:n] or Cristsan ['kriSts@(n)], which of course is rather ugly. Therefore, the actual development is Crixane [kri'Sa:n], Crixan ['kriS@(n)] or just Crix [kriS]. Thalmann can become Tauman ['[EMAIL PROTECTED] or maybe Taumanne [taw'man]. -- Christian Thalmann ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 04:11:47 +0100 From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Proto-Semitic (was Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) --- Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Or maybe it's a whole different phoneme! Something > like */C/, maybe... Didn't ancient Egyptian have [C]? ___________________________________________________________ Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - Jetzt mit 250MB Speicher kostenlos - Hier anmelden: http://mail.yahoo.de ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 6 Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:39:34 -0800 From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Article on Artificial Languages I just got word of an article that's to appear in Routledge's Encyclopedia of Linguistics--a two volume set: http://www.routledge-ny.com/ref/linguistics/ I heard that there was going to be an article on artificial languages, and a professor here at UCSD (an Esperantist) sent it as an attachment. So I read it. And uploaded it here: http://ling.ucsd.edu/~djp/dlstuff/esperantic.pdf I think it's about four pages long. It discusses, amongst many other fascinating topics: (1) Various auxiliary languages (2) Attempts at regularizing old European languages (3) Volapuk (4) Esperanto And that's it. This is how artificial languages are being represented in a major linguistic work. Sally: How's that book coming? -David ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:51:24 +1100 From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!) On 9 Mar 2005, at 2.33 pm, Christian Thalmann wrote: > John Cowen: Johan [jo:n], obviously. There's also the > variants Jandse [jandz] and Jondse [jAndz] from > Johannes. Cowen: Maybe Cauven ['[EMAIL PROTECTED] Incidentally, > I always thought you were pronounced /[EMAIL PROTECTED]/. The traditional pronunciation is indeed the one you given. John, however, tells a story wherein his father's PE teacher (I think) regularly mispronounced it as Cow-en, and the pronunciation stuck. (Note for instance John's name in Lojban is _la djan kau,n_, as you can see from e.g. <http://www.lojban.org/publications/level0/brochure/pref.html>.) -- Tristan. ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 8 Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:58:52 -0800 From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!) On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 03:33:54 -0000, Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Barry Garcia: Is that derived from Bernhard? In that case, > Bernarde [bEr'nard], the alteration Bendrade > [ben'dra:d], Beorran ['bErr@(n)], or Benne [bEn] for > short. Garsija [EMAIL PROTECTED]'si:] or even [gar'si:a] for the > language-conscious. I've seen several conflicting origins for my first name. It's a common Irish name, supposedly and what i've read is this: - A Derivation of Barruch - A Celtic word meaning "marksman" (I assume Irish.) - Also from a Celtic word meaning "fair hair": "Barry" is derived from "Bairre", a nickname for Fionnbharr ("Fair head") Incidentally, I was named after a Jewish doctor from New York who delivered my brother and I :). -- And they don't give the answers at the end of the test So you can't simply stand there and hope for the best So wake me up at the border when we reach Mexico I'll tell you a secret I don't even know... King of the Jailhouse - Aimee Mann ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 9 Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 20:43:45 -0800 From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: long consonants --- Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi! > > bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > --- # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I'd want to ask if much languages distinguish > long > > > and short consonants > >... > > Consonant lengthening, called 'gemination' is > found in > > Finnish, and I think a few Semetic languages. It's > > uncommon, but not that much so. > > Uncommon? That's not what I would say. To travel > around the world, > naming a few not-so-unknown langs: it exists in > Finnish, Estonian, > Japanese, Arabic, Greenlandic, Inuktitut, Swiss > German, and many > others. (And I'm sure I forgot a few other famous > ones.) > > I'd say it's quite common. > I stand corrected, and bow to your superior linguistic knowledge. -The Sock "My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings: Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair!" __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 10 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 00:17:33 -0500 From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Article on Artificial Languages ----- Original Message ----- From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >I just got word of an article that's to appear in Routledge's > Encyclopedia of Linguistics--a two volume set: > > http://www.routledge-ny.com/ref/linguistics/ > > I heard that there was going to be an article on artificial > languages, and a professor here at UCSD (an Esperantist) > sent it as an attachment. So I read it. And uploaded it > here: > > http://ling.ucsd.edu/~djp/dlstuff/esperantic.pdf > > I think it's about four pages long. It discusses, amongst > many other fascinating topics: > > (1) Various auxiliary languages > (2) Attempts at regularizing old European languages > (3) Volapuk > (4) Esperanto Yeah. Read it. > And that's it. This is how artificial languages are being > represented in a major linguistic work. Sally: How's that > book coming? The less you see of me, the more I'm getting done. :) The Survey was really helpful, thanks, guys. S. ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 11 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 00:15:22 -0500 From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: long consonants Henrik Theiling wrote: >bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > --- # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I'd want to ask if much languages distinguish >long > > > and short consonants > >... > > Consonant lengthening, called 'gemination' is >found in > > Finnish, and I think a few Semetic languages. It's > > uncommon, but not that much so. > >Uncommon? That's not what I would say. To travel >around the world, >naming a few not-so-unknown langs: it exists in >Finnish, Estonian, >Japanese, Arabic, Greenlandic, Inuktitut, Swiss >German, and many >others. (And I'm sure I forgot a few other famous >ones.) > >I'd say it's quite common. > ok thanks for these explainations I now feel more rassured about using them in conlangs and feeling them natural but still a question: are long consonants... geminated consonants phonemic in these languages? Are geminated consonants opposed to the short ones enough to make that pronounciating a germinated consonant as short would make the sense different or would it remains the same? And are they really phonemes in the sense it may be used in a root or do they simply *occur* when you paste a word that ends with the same consonant it is pasted to, like it is in the "penknife" example Sanghyeon Seo gave? - Max ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 12 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 01:27:58 -0500 From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: long consonants #1/Max wrote: > Henrik Theiling wrote: > > To travel > >around the world, > >naming a few not-so-unknown langs: it exists in > >Finnish, Estonian, > >Japanese, Arabic, Greenlandic, Inuktitut, Swiss > >German, and many > >others. (And I'm sure I forgot a few other famous > >ones.) > > > >I'd say it's quite common. > > > > ok thanks for these explainations I now feel more rassured about using > them > in conlangs and feeling them natural > > but still a question: are long consonants... geminated consonants phonemic > in these languages? They can be considered phonemic, in that they distinguish meaning in minimal pairs: Ital. anno [an:o] 'year' :: ano [ano] 'anus'. But it may depend on how one defines "phonemic" and what theoretical model one uses...And of course they can originate historically in a variety of ways-- assimilation of cons. clusters, for ex. IIRC in Arabic, gemination of C is a feature of some derivational processes. > > Are geminated consonants opposed to the short ones enough to make that > pronounciating a germinated consonant as short would make the sense > different or would it remains the same? Yes, definitely. I don't have my lists handy, but there are lots of min.pairs in the South Sulawesi languages-- some I remember, Bugis mita ['mita] 'to see' :: mitta ['mit:a] 'long time'; Makassarese, near-minimal: tallu '3', allo 'sun' :: alu 'pestle', talo 'defeated' > > And are they really phonemes in the sense it may be used in a root or do > they simply *occur* when you paste a word that ends with the same > consonant > it is pasted to, like it is in the "penknife" example Sanghyeon Seo gave? That can happen too, but it's purely phonetic; in such cases there's always a morpheme boundary. Again Bugis: aseng 'name' + -ku 'my' > asekku 'my name'; + -mu 'your' asemmu. Similary in Arab. where the -l of the article _al_ assimilates to certain initial consonants-- as/salaam '(the) peace', ar/rahman 'the omnipotent'. Geminates are fascinating!! ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 13 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 16:22:32 +0900 From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: long consonants On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 00:15:22 -0500, # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Are geminated consonants opposed to the short ones enough to make that > pronounciating a germinated consonant as short would make the sense > different or would it remains the same? I think I already gave a minimal pair in Korean. Some other not-quite-minimal examples: [tasima] (sea tangle) [simmaJi] (ginseng digger) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Korean lute) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (inspecting question) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (to lead, head, take care of) [EMAIL PROTECTED]@da] (to go across) There are more examples involving [ll], which I condiser a geminate, but this is not phonemic as [l] alone doesn't surface in Korean. Underlying [l] alone between vowels becomes [4] (alveolar flap as in American "water" or "better"). Therefore we transcribe English [r] as /l/ [4], and English [l] as /ll/ [ll], except initially, where /l/ remains [l]. So "holy" becomes "holli", etc. Seo Sanghyeon ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 14 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 07:32:50 +0000 From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: long consonants Henrik Theiling wrote: >Hi! > >bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > >>--- # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >>>I'd want to ask if much languages distinguish long >>>and short consonants >>> >>> >>... >>Consonant lengthening, called 'gemination' is found in >>Finnish, and I think a few Semetic languages. It's >>uncommon, but not that much so. >> >> > >Uncommon? That's not what I would say. To travel around the world, >naming a few not-so-unknown langs: it exists in Finnish, Estonian, >Japanese, Arabic, Greenlandic, Inuktitut, Swiss German, and many >others. (And I'm sure I forgot a few other famous ones.) > >I'd say it's quite common. > > In Estonian, it's actually used to mark the Illative case. eg. Ma lähen kinno Ma lähe-n kinno 1s go-1s cinema.ILL I am going to the cinema but: Ma olen kinos Ma ole-n kino-s 1s be-1s cinema-INESS I am in the Cinema ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 15 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:25:53 +0200 From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: long consonants On Mar 9, 2005, at 7:15 AM, # 1 wrote: > but still a question: are long consonants... geminated consonants > phonemic in these languages? > Are geminated consonants opposed to the short ones enough to make that > pronounciating a germinated consonant as short would make the sense > different or would it remains the same? > And are they really phonemes in the sense it may be used in a root or > do > they simply *occur* when you paste a word that ends with the same > consonant it is pasted to, like it is in the "penknife" example > Sanghyeon Seo gave? > - Max In the Semitic languages, geminated consonants are modifications of the non-geminated ones, with semantic meaning. So it's a phonemic difference, but not in the sense that /t/ and /tt/ are completely separate independent phonemes. For example: the root |QPTz| in Hebrew. In the _pa`al_ (G; "Simple") paradigm: /k>apats)>/ [k>Ofats)>] "he jumped" In the _pi`eil_ (D; "Intensive") paradigm: /k>ippets)>/ [k>ippets)>] "he hopped around" the root |GNB| in Hebrew. In the _pa`al_ paradigm: /ganab/ [gOnav] "he stole" In a 'job' pattern: /gannab/ [gannOv] "(a) thief" the root |ZBN| in Aramaic. (sorry, i can't remember the exact vowel qualities) In the _pe`al_ (G) paradigm: /z b n/ "buy" In the D paradigm: /z bb n/ "sell" Btw: G = simple paradigm (Hebrew PA`AL, Arabic FA`ALA, Aramaic [EMAIL PROTECTED]) D = paradigm with geminated middle root consonant -Stephen (Steg) "and it's a heave-ho! hi-ho! coming down the plains stealing wheat and barley and all the other grains and it's a ho-hey! hi-hey! farmers bar your doors when you see the jolly roger on regina's mighty shores" ~ from 'the last saskatchewan pirate' ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 16 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:56:27 +0200 From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Proto-Semitic (was Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) On Mar 9, 2005, at 5:11 AM, Steven Williams wrote: > --- Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Or maybe it's a whole different phoneme! Something >> like */C/, maybe... > Didn't ancient Egyptian have [C]? Not sure... I seem to remember it had something along the lines of /c/, though. (transliterated |tj|). As well as the voiced equivalent. -Stephen (Steg) "it's a *thatch* hatchet!" ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 17 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:55:25 +0200 From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Proto-Semitic (was Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) On Mar 9, 2005, at 4:38 AM, Steven Williams wrote: > I heard it posited that the definite article /al-/ was > /*hal-/ at some point in both Hebrew and Arabic, and > the two langauges just dropped a different phomene in > each of their respective cases. Makes some sense, at least... That seems to be the most common theory, from what i've seen. I learned a few more controversial ones in the class i took, one of which i adopted for my Semiticonlang. -Stephen (Steg) "it's a *thatch* hatchet!" ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 18 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:49:17 +0100 From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!) Quoting Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > --- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > If [to~:] is correct, the most natural adaption to Meghean would be > _Toñh_ > > [toG~], I suppose. > > [G~]? That's rather original, albeit Orkish-sounding to me... I'm positive I've never seen an orclang with nasalized fricatives. :p > kinda like the velar analogon to /F/. I liked it better when > Meghean nasals didn't lenit. And since we're at it, I'm also > not fond of the looks of ñ, though I believe you've had it > before. But it's your lang after all... The _ñ_ has been in all along. I'm not terribly happy with it either - it's the only diacritic'd letter, for a start - but the realistic alternative is using 'k' or 'q' for [N], either of which seems overly perverse to me, not to speak of 'kh' or 'qh' for [G~], or, horror of horrors, 'kc' or 'qc' for [Nk]. I kind of like the nasal frics. They give rise to some very neat alterations. :) What did you think of the introduction of [h]? I must say I'm rather proud of alterations like _tash_ [tah] ~ _tans_ [tans]. Your name, BTW, would most straightforwardly be adapted as Cris-Tiean Tal-Man [kris.tSi.jan tal.man] or Cris-Tean [kris.tSan]. In normal usage, the hyphens would be dropped, of course. In fact, I've not yet decided whether a hyphen-equivalent is used at all in the native script. Incidentally, I'm considering making [G~] > [Z~] before front vowels. Would make sense, since [G] > [Z] in the same position. Andreas ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 19 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:28:33 +0100 From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!) * Christian Thalmann said on 2005-03-09 04:33:54 +0100 > Many of these names have a traditional form in Jovian that > has undergone the Grand Master Plan, while more recent > phonetic imports are equally possible. > > Henrik: Hendric ['hendriC] > Yep, I'm afraid the Jervans would hear your [R] as an > /r/ and treat it that way. No Jervan would be caught > dead pronouncing [nr] without an epenthetic [d]. So > sue them. :) This *is* great fun. Maybe somebody could make a page of our (=on-list) languages translations of our names; could prettify the "On so-and-so date someone wrote the following" lines when replying. It is rather internal of course, so probably not suited for for instance langmaker. It'd make a good standard translation-exercise too, testing the phonology hard. Actually, I find that learning about the phonology (and bits of culture as above) this way much easier than reading charts of sound-letter correspondences, easier to remember too. t. ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 20 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:29:16 +0100 From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: long consonants # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >... > Are geminated consonants opposed to the short ones enough to make that > pronounciating a germinated consonant as short would make the sense > different or would it remains the same? Sure. An impressive example from Finnish: http://tinyurl.com/3poxn It has minimal pairs: tulen tullen tuleen tulleen tuulen tuullen tuuleen tuulleen > And are they really phonemes in the sense it may be used in a root or do > they simply *occur* when you paste a word that ends with the same consonant > it is pasted to, like it is in the "penknife" example Sanghyeon Seo gave? In many langs, they may be part of the root itself, yes. On others, they mainly/only occur when words are composed and morphemes fuse. There are no global constraints, I think. :-) **Henrik ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 21 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:35:46 +0100 From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!) On Monday 07 March 2005 20:56 +0100, H. S. Teoh wrote: > > Just to play the game, examples from Tyl Sjok: > > - 'Henrik': [hEn=Xik=], > > - 'Björn': [djEl3n=] oder [gjEl3n=], > > - 'Arthaey Angosii': [?al=sE ?ENgVsi] -- quite > > close, I think. :-) - Henrik: Henring ["hEn.4IN], because [k] -> [N] at the end of words. Additionally, h/C/#_ often happens. - Björn: Byern [bjE6n] - Arthaey Angosii Artey Angosi ["a4t_dEI) AN"gosi] (I even don't know how to pronounce that in English!) > Rachel -> datsere [da.'tsE.4E] > Robert -> doberet [dO.bE.'4Et] > Roland -> doran ['dO.4an] > Rudy -> duri ['du.4i] (you can see how [4] and [d] swap > here) Lisa -> disa ['di.sa] - Rachel: Reisyel ["4EI)[EMAIL PROTECTED] - Robert: Robern ["robE6n] - Rudy: Rudi ["4ud_di] - Lisa: Laysa ["lAI)sa] As for some of the currently active people from the list ... - Sally Caves: Seli Ceves ["seli "kevEs] - Roger Mills: Rodya Mils ["4od_dja mils] - Philip Newton: Vilim Nyutan ["vilim njut_dAn] - Teoh: Teo ["t_deo] - Jörg Rhiemeier: Yeng Rimaya [jEN 4i"maja] - Andreas Johansson: Andreas Yohanson [An"d4eAs jo"hAnsOn] (h/X/_[+back]) - Christian Thalmann: Cristyan Talman ["k4t_djAn "t_dalmAn] - David Peterson: Devin Pitersan ["d_devin pi"t_de6sAn] - Benct Philip Jonsson: Beng Vilim Yonson [bEN "vilim "jonsOn] - Thomas Weir: Tomas Ver ["t_domAs vE4] - Carsten Becker: Carseten Becer [ka4"set_dEn "beke4] - René Uittenbogaard: Rene Eytanbogarn ["4ene "EI)tAn"boga4n] - Tristan McLeay: Triseten Mecley [t4i"set_dEn me"klEI)] - Isaac Penzev: Isang Pensem ["isAN "pEnsEm] - Steg Belsky: Seteng Belseci [se"t_dEN bel"seki] Carsten -- Edatamanon le matahanarà benenoea ena 15-A7-58-11-2-19-41 ena Curan Tertanyan. » http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 22 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:52:08 +0100 From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!) Quoting Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > - Andreas Johansson: Andreas Yohanson [An"d4eAs jo"hAnsOn] > (h/X/_[+back]) It's worth noting that the 'h' in my surname is mute, and that the 'o' spells [u:]. Andreas ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 23 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:20:09 -0500 From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!) On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:52:08 +0100, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Quoting Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > >> - Andreas Johansson: Andreas Yohanson [An"d4eAs jo"hAnsOn] >> (h/X/_[+back]) > >It's worth noting that the 'h' in my surname is mute, and that the 'o' spells >[u:]. Oh. I didn't know that. It'd be "Yoansun" ["joAnsUn] then, or even possibly ["wAnsUn] because of [o, u] -> [w] sometimes. ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 24 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:16:13 +0100 From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!) Andreas Johansson wrote: > Quoting Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > >>Andreas Johansson > Andræyas Yuhensun /6ndr&j6s juhi\nsun/ (3) > > [snip] > >>(3) or Yohanson /jQh6nsQn/. > > > The later sounds alot like the usual German mangling of my surname. > > You couldn't have "Yuhanson" /juh6nsQn/? No, that would break the vowel-harmony rules, and we can't do that, can we? All vowels in a non-compound word must be either all high or all low. While _yuh_ looks like a nice Sohlob word _(h)anson_ definitely does not(*), so that rules out the compound possibility. (*)Possible, but not fitting the lámatyáve. > Bent Feilip Unson [bEnt fejlIp UnsOn] (you may want to spell it Fílip > [fejlIp]) Feilip is OK, not least since it is Fei in Mandarin. -- /BP 8^)> -- Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant! (Tacitus) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 25 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:23:47 +0100 From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Chinese family names (was Name mangling (Was: Re: First Sound Recording of Asha'ille!)) Philip Newton wrote: > On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:16:59 +0100, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > >>"Yuansun" looks like it could be a Chinese name. Is it? > > > So it appears; Google for it and you'll see it appears in connection > with a couple of Chinese family names. Pretty rare, though, if Google > frequency is any indication. Iss there any online list of Chinese family names? > And pronounce something like /[EMAIL PROTECTED]/, I'd guess. [HAnsun]. [EMAIL PROTECTED] would be Yuensun. > > Cheers, > -- > Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Watch the Reply-To! > > -- /BP 8^)> -- Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant! (Tacitus) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------