There are 23 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Conlanging with constraints
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
1b. Re: Conlanging with constraints
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
1c. Re: Conlanging with constraints
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
1d. Re: Conlanging with constraints
From: Herman Miller
1e. Re: Conlanging with constraints
From: R A Brown
1f. (Re: Conlanging with constraints) BEWARE OF RE(TURN ADDRESS
From: R A Brown
1g. Re: Conlanging with constraints
From: Sai Emrys
1h. Re: Conlanging with constraints
From: R A Brown
1i. OT Ockham's razor (was: Conlanging with constraints)
From: R A Brown
2a. Re: OT: syrinx (was Conlanging with constraints)
From: Herman Miller
3a. Re: Conlang books collection on Amazon
From: Eric Christopherson
3b. Re: Conlang books collection on Amazon
From: Sai Emrys
3c. Re: Conlang books collection on Amazon
From: Eric Christopherson
3d. Re: Conlang books collection on Amazon
From: Sai Emrys
4.1. Re: TRANS: Borges (fi: conlanging and journaling)
From: Eric Christopherson
4.2. Re: TRANS: Borges (fi: conlanging and journaling)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5a. NATLANGS: Difthongization across Europa
From: John Vertical
5b. Re: NATLANGS: Difthongization across Europa
From: Benct Philip Jonsson
6a. Fiction with connatlangs vs conconlangs
From: Jim Henry
6b. Re: Fiction with connatlangs vs conconlangs
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7a. Re: whales. Re: OT: syrinx (was Conlanging with constraints)
From: Jim Henry
7b. Re: whales. Re: OT: syrinx (was Conlanging with constraints)
From: Jim Henry
8. Fith
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Conlanging with constraints
Posted by: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:19 am ((PST))
In a message dated 2/16/2008 23:54:49 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> But (at least) one freedom I wouldn't have with a human languages: Kesatans
> can change the color of their skin at will (which could be used to
> compensate for the lack of hand-shape distinctions).
Changing skin color as a language medium is explored in "The color of
distance" by Amy Thomson, and also in its sequel "Through alien eyes". The
aliens
communicate by creating graphic images (essentially writing) by changing the
color of their skin.
stevo </HTML>
Messages in this topic (22)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Conlanging with constraints
Posted by: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:22 am ((PST))
In a message dated 2/17/2008 06:16:15 AM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> My main conlang projects are meant to be naturalistic, and thus
> naturalism is the main constraint for them. So, I would not have
> a stack-based syntax, an oligosynthetic structure, a taxonomic
> vocabulary, or anything else one would not expect to meet in a
> human natlang.
>
Can you explain and give examples of a stack-based syntax?
stevo </HTML>
Messages in this topic (22)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Conlanging with constraints
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:37 am ((PST))
Hallo!
On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:22:18 EST, steveo wrote:
> Can you explain and give examples of a stack-based syntax?
See here (Fith, by Jeffrey Henning):
http://www.langmaker.com/fith.htm
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Messages in this topic (22)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: Conlanging with constraints
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:38 am ((PST))
Sai Emrys wrote:
> How have you experienced your conlanging as being influenced (for
> better or for worse) by constraints imposed upon it, of whatever
> source? What constraints do you have, and whence derived? Why have you
> imposed them? What constraints have you considered trying?
I don't often impose explicit constraints, but there have been a couple
of examples. Jaghri was my attempt to build a language around a
self-segregating morphology; morpheme and word boundaries can be found
without ambiguity. Roots of more than one syllable are derived from
shorter roots, but not without ambiguity. The other example is Kisuna, a
language with only six segmental phonemes. The challenge there was to
make enough distinctions in the vocabulary without letting the words get
too long.
More often, I have an idea for what a language should be like without
setting any explicit constraints. Still, there are always implicit
constraints. The sounds and grammatical rules of the language should
keep within the boundaries of what's possible for human languages, but
they shouldn't be too similar to English. Even with my non-human
languages, I don't bend the rules far from human languages; all the
species with spoken languages are either related, or initially had
language taught to them from a human-like species.
Messages in this topic (22)
________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: Conlanging with constraints
Posted by: "R A Brown" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:53 am ((PST))
Hi!
Henrik Theiling wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Sai Emrys writes:
>> I'm considering a topic for a talk at a future LCC, about conlanging
>> with constraints.
[snip]
>> What are other examples?
>
> I've done this all the time for my conlangs,
So have I - that's the challenge of conlanging, isn't it?
[snip]
>> How have you experienced your conlanging as being influenced (for
>> better or for worse) by constraints imposed upon it, of whatever
>> source? What constraints do you have, and whence derived? Why have you
>> imposed them? What constraints have you considered trying?
>
> Generally, constraints helped me focus and make a more consistent
> conlang.
Exactly!!
The constraints of Piashi are detailed on
http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Briefscript/ObjAndDesign.html
Those who have followed the tortuous development so far of 'briefscript'
--> BrSc --> Piashi over the past tent years or so will know that these
constraints have had considerable influence on its development. It is
turning out somewhat different from what I had expected 10 years back.
The constraints on TAKE are conditioned by its alternate history:
http://www.carolandray.plus.com/TAKE/index.html
The exchange of emails between myself and Philip on this list last month
re 'WHAT calendar for the current year 2012' show up some of the effects
of this constraint.
The constraints of my as yet unnamed 'experimental loglang' (Maybe Plan
C???) are given on:
http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Loglang/index.html
--------------------------------
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> In a message dated 2/17/2008 06:16:15 AM Central Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
>
>> My main conlang projects are meant to be naturalistic, and thus
>> naturalism is the main constraint for them. So, I would not have
>> a stack-based syntax, an oligosynthetic structure, a taxonomic
>> vocabulary, or anything else one would not expect to meet in a
>> human natlang.
>>
>
> Can you explain and give examples of a stack-based syntax?
The 'classic' example is Jeffrey Henning's 'Fith'; see:
http://www.langmaker.com/fith.htm
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Entia non sunt multiplicanda
praeter necessitudinem.
Messages in this topic (22)
________________________________________________________________________
1f. (Re: Conlanging with constraints) BEWARE OF RE(TURN ADDRESS
Posted by: "R A Brown" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:57 am ((PST))
Sorry!
Forgot to set the correct return address on the email I've just sent :=(
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Entia non sunt multiplicanda
praeter necessitudinem.
Messages in this topic (22)
________________________________________________________________________
1g. Re: Conlanging with constraints
Posted by: "Sai Emrys" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:18 pm ((PST))
Some further questions for musing-in-principle or specific examples:
What makes a constraint "arbitrary"? To what degree have you used
arbitrary constraints, why, and with what results? Is imposing
arbitrary constraints on your conlanging helpful, temporarily helpful,
or just a hindrance?
What might be some interesting constraints to use? E.g. for a novice
conlanger, for instructional purposes, or for creating something new?
What constraints would be *over*constraining? E.g. resulting in a lack
of area remaining within which to be creative; resulting in something
that violates "actual" universals of language hard enough to not be
usable by humans; etc?
- Sai
P.S. On Feb 17, 2008 11:54 AM, R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
(sig)
> Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitudinem.
Any reason for this not being 'necessitatem'? (My Latin isn't quite
good enough to tell the difference, but IIRC that's the standard
version...)
Messages in this topic (22)
________________________________________________________________________
1h. Re: Conlanging with constraints
Posted by: "R A Brown" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:49 am ((PST))
Sai Emrys wrote:
> Some further questions for musing-in-principle or specific examples:
>
> What makes a constraint "arbitrary"?
I guess if there is no clear reason for the constraint other than the
apparent whim of the language constructor, one might term it
'arbitrary'. Or if there are two or more plausible ways in which a
particular problem could be solved and the constructor picks one of
them, offering no cogent reason why s/he chose that one instead of other
possibilities.
> To what degree have you used
> arbitrary constraints,
Arguably the constraints imposed on TAKE are somewhat arbitrary. Who
knows how an alternate history might really work out in some parallel
universe?
> why,
To give some sort of plausible scenario in which an auxlang which was
"Greek without inflexions" might have been devised - but also to keep
the alternate history not too far removed from that of our world (simply
to make life easier!).
> and with what results?
The main one is that anythings which is Latin or Romance derived has to
be ignored.
> Is imposing
> arbitrary constraints on your conlanging helpful, temporarily helpful,
> or just a hindrance?
I felt some sort of pseudo-historic constraints were necessary to give a
plausible scenario. They are helpful in that the scenario is
established. They have not IMO proved a hindrance.
I do not consider the constraints on Piashi to be arbitrary as IMO they
follow from the basic objectives of the language. The constraints on my
experimental loglang are inherited from Jeff Prothero's 'Plan B'
(whether the restraints he imposed are arbitrary or not is another matter).
> What might be some interesting constraints to use? E.g. for a novice
> conlanger, for instructional purposes, or for creating something new?
I'll pass on this one - I have no doubt others will make suggestions :)
> What constraints would be *over*constraining? E.g. resulting in a lack
> of area remaining within which to be creative; resulting in something
> that violates "actual" universals of language hard enough to not be
> usable by humans; etc?
Quite possibly - and to create a language to test the violation of some
actual 'universals' is one good reason IMO to create a language.
But I see no evidence that such constraints result in a lack of
creativity. For example, to make a language stack-based is clearly a
restraint and is likely to produce something not (easily) usable by
humans; however, it did not stop Jeffrey Henning showing creativity with
Fith.
> - Sai
>
> P.S. On Feb 17, 2008 11:54 AM, R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> (sig)
>> Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitudinem.
>
> Any reason for this not being 'necessitatem'?
Answered in a separate email.
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Messages in this topic (22)
________________________________________________________________________
1i. OT Ockham's razor (was: Conlanging with constraints)
Posted by: "R A Brown" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:18 am ((PST))
(Before anyone writes in saying it should be 'Occam', I will merely say
that I am living in the 21st century and that when I write in English I
use the contemporary spelling of English place names. The village, which
is not far from where I live, is currently spelled 'Ockham' and has been
so for a few centuries now. It does seem to me somewhat of an
anachronism to render the medieval Latin "Guillelmus de Occam" into
English with the modern 'William' while retaining an antiquated spelling
of the village in which he was born.)
Sai Emrys wrote:
[snip]
> P.S. On Feb 17, 2008 11:54 AM, R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> (sig)
>> Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitudinem.
>
> Any reason for this not being 'necessitatem'?
Simply that this is the version I found when I looked it up :)
> (My Latin isn't quite good enough to tell the difference,
Both _necessitas_ and _necessitudo_ are found in Classical Latin and
both have been used ever since. Both are abstract nouns derived from the
indeclinable neuter adjective _necesse_ (unavoidable, inevitable,
indispensable, necessary). Both nouns have similar core meanings, but
each developed different secondary meanings:
necessitas (gen: necessitatis) = unavoidableness, inevitableness,
necessity, compulsion, force, exigency; fate, destiny, law of nature;
[in plural only] necessaries, necessary things, necessary expenses;
[also occasionally used like _necessitudo_ to mean: 'relationship,
friendship]
necessitudo (gen. necessitudinis) = necessity, inevitableness, want,
need, distress; close connexion, relationship, friendship, intimacy.
> but IIRC that's the standard version...)
Yes, on investigating the maxim, I discover that tho it is referred to
as "Ockham's razor" there is no evidence at all that William of Ockham
ever wrote 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem." It seems
that Latin maxim is not attested before the 17th century. I find also
that not only is it quoted with the last word as _necessitatem_ or
_necessitudinem_, but also with the first word as _entia_ or _essentia_
(but IME versions with _entia_ are far more common).
It would seem to be a 17th century (and therefore _not_ medieval)
rewording of the genuine medieval maxim: 'pluralitas non est ponenda
sine neccesitate' (plurality should not be posited without necessity).
This latter version is also often attributed to William of Ockham but,
it seems, is not actually attested in any of his extant writings; it
does, however, appear in the _Sentences_ of Peter Lombard (Bishop of
Paris, +1164), and the _Summulae Logicales_ of Petrus Hispanus and some
other medieval writers.
However, William did write: 'frustra fit per plura quod potest fieri per
pauciora' (It is pointless to do with more what can be done with less),
tho even with this he was apparently only repeating an existing maxim.
One further point: I discover that this maxim, in whatever version it is
expressed, was not called "Ockham's razor" until Sir William Hamilton
dubbed it so in 1852.
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Frustra fit per plura quod potest
fieri per pauciora.
[William of Ockham]
Messages in this topic (22)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: OT: syrinx (was Conlanging with constraints)
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:28 pm ((PST))
caeruleancentaur wrote:
>> Ollock Ackeop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> ...I decided to give them a syrinx -- which allows them
>> to produce two tones simultaneously.
>
> Is this really possible for birds? I never knew this. I'm hoping the
> answer is "yes," because I'd like to make it an anatomical feature in
> one of the loquent races in my conworld.
Yes, there are birds that produce different tones from each branch of
the syrinx. This can be heard in some recordings if you slow them down
(1/4 speed is good for this).
Here's a page with some 1/2 speed recordings of bird songs. The Veery
song on this page has a pretty clear example of singing two different
pitches at once.
http://www.math.sunysb.edu/~tony/birds/slo-mo.html
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. Re: Conlang books collection on Amazon
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:28 pm ((PST))
On Feb 15, 2008, at 4:03 PM, Sai Emrys wrote:
> On Feb 15, 2008 5:50 AM, Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> What would be a better way of tagging or sub-tagging or
>> multi-tagging?
>
> You can add multiple tags. Just make sure 'conlangs' is one of them,
> and it'll be accessible.
>
> See the new link on <http://conlangs.berkeley.edu/schwag.php> (I've
> edited it a bit); it points to something that supports exactly the
> sort of multi-tagging / narrowing that you suggest.
I'm having trouble searching by tags on Amazon... how is it done?
Messages in this topic (20)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Re: Conlang books collection on Amazon
Posted by: "Sai Emrys" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:31 pm ((PST))
On Feb 17, 2008 12:27 PM, Eric Christopherson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm having trouble searching by tags on Amazon... how is it done?
Their UI for it isn't very good, unfortunately.
Click the link on the schwag page; at the top, you should see that the
search bar now searches for "Products tagged with:".
You could also just URL-hack; see what the LCS link gives you and
modify it as appropriate.
Another thing is if you look through the page and find the tags
section (it's ~2/3 down), you can probably click any of the existing
tags on a book to see other things tagged by that.
I've tagged all the books that were in the previous list as
'conlangs', but I suspect that it hasn't entirely gone through (or
perhaps is out of sync?), since I haven't seen 'em all consistently in
the tags list. Perhaps it just takes time to really take effect.
Hope that helps,
- Sai
Messages in this topic (20)
________________________________________________________________________
3c. Re: Conlang books collection on Amazon
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:42 pm ((PST))
On Feb 17, 2008, at 3:30 PM, Sai Emrys wrote:
> On Feb 17, 2008 12:27 PM, Eric Christopherson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>> I'm having trouble searching by tags on Amazon... how is it done?
>
> Their UI for it isn't very good, unfortunately.
>
> Click the link on the schwag page; at the top, you should see that the
> search bar now searches for "Products tagged with:".
>
> You could also just URL-hack; see what the LCS link gives you and
> modify it as appropriate.
>
> Another thing is if you look through the page and find the tags
> section (it's ~2/3 down), you can probably click any of the existing
> tags on a book to see other things tagged by that.
>
> I've tagged all the books that were in the previous list as
> 'conlangs', but I suspect that it hasn't entirely gone through (or
> perhaps is out of sync?), since I haven't seen 'em all consistently in
> the tags list. Perhaps it just takes time to really take effect.
>
> Hope that helps,
>
> - Sai
Ah, thanks. So I guess there isn't a way to specify an arbitrary tag,
apart from pages like the schwag page that link to tags or using URL
hacking.
Messages in this topic (20)
________________________________________________________________________
3d. Re: Conlang books collection on Amazon
Posted by: "Sai Emrys" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:57 am ((PST))
On Feb 17, 2008 8:42 PM, Eric Christopherson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ah, thanks. So I guess there isn't a way to specify an arbitrary tag,
> apart from pages like the schwag page that link to tags or using URL
> hacking.
There is, I just don't know what's an easy way to get to it. It's kinda a pain.
*shrug* Not one of the better designed aspects of their site.
- Sai
Messages in this topic (20)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4.1. Re: TRANS: Borges (fi: conlanging and journaling)
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:21 pm ((PST))
On Feb 11, 2008, at 12:27 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> In a message dated 2/11/2008 03:47:56 AM Central Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
>
>>>> "A man sets himself the task of portraying the world.
>>>> Through the years he peoples a space with images of
>>>> provinces, kingdoms, mountains, bays, ships, islands,
>>>> fishes, rooms, tools, stars, horses, and people. Shortly
>>>> before his death, he discovers that that patient
>>>> labyrinth of lines traces the image of his face."
>>>
>>> That would make a nice Translation Challenge :-P
>
>>
>
>> That's an idea! In Wenedyk (UTF-8):
>
>>
>
>> "WomieÅ punie si mÄdu, prokód portretar mÄ
d. Par onie iÅ popÅa
>
>> szpac ku imażeni prowiÄczar, rzeniór, mÄciór, bajar, nakÅar,
>
>> izÅar, pieszczór, kÄbrar, wyciÄźlar, ÅcioÅar, kawaÅór i
>
>> ludzi. Kart prze mrocie, iÅ dziekoprze, kód labirynt paciÄci
>
>> liniar szekwie imażeÅ Åu faczeje."
>
>>
>
>> Jan
>
>>
>
> This doesn't look like what you intended.
>
> stevo </HTML>
Yeah; for some reason it appears to treat the UTF-8 as Latin-1, even
after I tell it explicitly to treat it as UTF-8. Odd. (I'm using Mac
OS X Mail.)
Messages in this topic (41)
________________________________________________________________________
4.2. Re: TRANS: Borges (fi: conlanging and journaling)
Posted by: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:23 am ((PST))
In a message dated 2/18/2008 01:32:48 AM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> > This doesn't look like what you intended.
> >
> > stevo
>
> Yeah; for some reason it appears to treat the UTF-8 as Latin-1, even
> after I tell it explicitly to treat it as UTF-8. Odd. (I'm using Mac
>
But that time it all came through fine (although I snipped it).
stevo </HTML>
Messages in this topic (41)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5a. NATLANGS: Difthongization across Europa
Posted by: "John Vertical" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:49 am ((PST))
A thing I've been wondering. I've noticed that some quite similar vowel
shifts occur in several European languages around the beginning of the
Middle Ages... Most prominently, this bunch:
Romance - E: O: > je wo
West Slavic - o: > u / wo
SW Germanic - e: 2: o: > i@ y@ u@ <ie üe uo>
Baltic - e: o: > ie uo
Finnish - e: 2: o: > ie y2 uo
Northern Sami - E: O: > ie uo
which does not look co-incidental at all...
But I also recently noticed Faroese has &: A: > ea oa. I understand this
also happens in various other Scandinavian 'lects, as well as dialectally in
Finnish. I wonder if the pre-GVS change of &: A: > E: O: in English went
thru this stage too, seeing that they're spelled <ea oa>?
So anyone kno of any crosslinguistic reserch on the chronology & propagation
of these sound changes? Where did they start and when? Were languages such
as Estonian or Swedish simply standardized from a non-difthongizing 'lect or
did the sound change "jump over" them in some fashion? etc.
John Vertical
(PS. Sorry to mess with your email filters. I couldn't decide whether to put
this under NATLANG or THEORY.)
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
5b. Re: NATLANGS: Difthongization across Europa
Posted by: "Benct Philip Jonsson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:19 am ((PST))
John Vertical skrev:
> A thing I've been wondering. I've noticed that some quite
> similar vowel shifts occur in several European languages
> around the beginning of the Middle Ages... Most
> prominently, this bunch: Romance - E: O: > je wo West
> Slavic - o: > u / wo SW Germanic - e: 2: o: > i@ y@ u@ <ie
> üe uo> Baltic - e: o: > ie uo Finnish - e: 2: o: > ie y2
> uo Northern Sami - E: O: > ie uo which does not look co-
> incidental at all...
Diphthongization happens all the time in sundry languages at
sundry times simply because it is hard ti maintain the
articulation of a long vowel, so high vowels tend to become
closing diphthongs (Old French e: > ei > oi > oe > oE > wa,
o: > ou > u:) and low vowels tend to become centering
diphthongs (OF E: > iE, O: > uo > ue > u2). Middle Indo-
Aryan had @i @u merging with e: o:, and Hindi/Urdu
dialects again had newly arisen @i @u > E: O: (remaining
distinct this time). Clearly there may be areal influence
at work, as has been suggested e.g. for Old French and
Old High German E: O: > iE uO at about the same time (5th-
10th century -- in OHG the progeression in spellings e >
ea > ia > ie can actually be observed in manuscripts
through the 6th to 10th century!). There was certainly
areal influence at work when German had i: y: u: > @i @y
@u > ai 9i au, Dutch had i: u: > @i @u, o: O: > u: o:,
English had i: u: > @i @u and Frisian had centralizing
diphthongization of practically all its long vowels at
the same time! In North America a change & > &: > &@ > E@
> e@ > i@ / _[cons vcd] has happened since the middle of
the last century as part of sweeping chain shifts:
- <http://tinyurl.com/346kus>
- <http://tinyurl.com/2ozv5b>
>
> But I also recently noticed Faroese has &: A: > ea oa.
Actually &: > ea and Q: > oa, with later secondary a:
merging with &:. Old Norse had no long a:/A:, since
Common Scandinavian A: had merged with Q:. Only one very
old text -- the so-called First Grammatical Treatise
distinguishes the two.
> I understand this also happens in various other
> Scandinavian 'lects, as well as dialectally in Finnish.
There is a lot of diphthongization in Scandinavian dialects,
and more in the more peripheral areas (furthest west, north
and east -- as in east of the Bothnic and Baltic --, but
also in Jutland); e: o: diphthongize both ways: ei ou/ie uo
in different areas. Icelandic strangely has e: > je but &: >
ai, o: ou, and the Icelandic and Faroese developments of Q:
are opposite: au and oa! Many south Scandinavian dialects
also had G > j/w depending on the front-/backness of the
preceding vowel similar to what Old English had half a
millennium earlier. Danish dialects even have D > j, which
in effect is a kind of dipthongization too.
> I wonder if the pre-GVS change of &: A: > E: O: in
> English went thru this stage too, seeing that they're
> spelled <ea oa>?
No. Old English had a real /&:@/ diphthong which was spelled
_ea_, but merged with /&:/ in late OE or early ME, so that
_ea_ became a spelling for /&:/; _oa_ probably being a late
analogical creation, although some ME dialects had
centralizing diphthongization of E: O:, as witnessed e.g. by
the modern pronunciation of _one_ /[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ < OE /A:n/ which was
borrowed from such a dialect. ME spelling usually didn't
distinguish E:/e: and O:/o:, writing _ee_ and _oo_ for both
members of each pair. Ironically the _ea_ and _oa_ spellings
didn't come in vogue intil shortly before the GVS!
> So anyone kno of any crosslinguistic reserch on the
> chronology & propagation of these sound changes? Where
> did they start and when? Were languages such as Estonian
> or Swedish simply standardized from a non-difthongizing
> 'lect or did the sound change "jump over" them in some
> fashion? etc.
No they standardized from non-diphthongizing lects, or
rather they standardized *before* diphthongization. Cf.
Danish which still spells /ai/, and /au/ as _eg/æg_ and
_ag_ when the derive from Common Scand. ek/ak! COSc. G > j/w
a millennium ago, but then a new G arose from k / V_V, which
again went to j/w in more recent centuries. Some claim Karen
Blixen was the last to cling to the [G] pronunciation! :-)
> John Vertical (PS. Sorry to mess with your email filters.
> I couldn't decide whether to put this under NATLANG or
> THEORY.)
Clearly THEORY IMNSHO!
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"C'est en vain que nos Josués littéraires crient
à la langue de s'arrêter; les langues ni le soleil
ne s'arrêtent plus. Le jour où elles se *fixent*,
c'est qu'elles meurent." (Victor Hugo)
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
6a. Fiction with connatlangs vs conconlangs
Posted by: "Jim Henry" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:33 am ((PST))
On Feb 16, 2008 4:05 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In a message dated 2/15/2008 08:10:37 AM Central Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> Is there enough category 3 fiction to warrant an a/b distinction?
Maybe not. I can think of five sf novels/series/novellas off the top of
my head which involve characters creating conlangs of some kind.
There are a lot more sf and fantasy novels and stories in which
a conlang plays the role of a natlang within the imaginary world,
though in most of them the language is sketchy and only used
for names or a handful of phrases. Do we count all the sf novels
where the author has put some significant thought into a relatively
near-future evolution of English?
Besides those in which conlanging is a major part of the
story, several others come to mind in which there are throwaway
references to constructed languages devised for particular
purposes -- usually superhumans or posthumans devising
something to suit their modes of thought better than natural
human languages. And then there are the several sf novels
and series where Esperanto or some other existing auxlang
is used.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
6b. Re: Fiction with connatlangs vs conconlangs
Posted by: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:20 am ((PST))
In a message dated 2/18/2008 10:38:52 AM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> Besides those in which conlanging is a major part of the
> story, several others come to mind in which there are throwaway
> references to constructed languages devised for particular
> purposes -- usually superhumans or posthumans devising
> something to suit their modes of thought better than natural
> human languages.
Heinlein's "Gulf" (Speedtalk?) (à la Ithkuil) and "The moon is a harsh
mistress" (Loglan) come to mind, but one of my favorites is Singlespeech (and
?Multispeech) in M. A. Foster's "The warriors of Dawn" and "Transformers". I
read
"The languages of Pao" by Jack Vance over 23 years ago (it's not in my reading
log, which I started in 1985). "Babel-17" by Samuel Delany. "Native Tongue"
by Suzette Haden Elgin (Láadan). "The Troika incident" by James Cooke Brown
(Loglan).
Several languages, one a descendant of Mayan, figure in Catherine Asaro's
Skolian Empire series.
Those're about all I can think of right now.
stevo </HTML>
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
7a. Re: whales. Re: OT: syrinx (was Conlanging with constraints)
Posted by: "Jim Henry" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:44 am ((PST))
On Feb 17, 2008 9:26 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In a message dated 2/17/2008 04:53:10 AM Central Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> Anyone know of other novels or stories involving cetacean societies?
Alan Dean Foster's _Cachalot_ is the only one that comes
to mind. It's set on an oceanic planet to which all the ceteceans
of Earth have migrated, but there are a few human residents
and guests, and IIRC the story is mostly or entirely from
their POV.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
7b. Re: whales. Re: OT: syrinx (was Conlanging with constraints)
Posted by: "Jim Henry" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:54 am ((PST))
> On Feb 17, 2008 9:26 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > In a message dated 2/17/2008 04:53:10 AM Central Standard Time,
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> > Anyone know of other novels or stories involving cetacean societies?
You might find more of interest in this Cetacean Fiction Bibliography:
http://www.helsinki.fi/~lauhakan/whale/literature/fiction.html
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
8. Fith
Posted by: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:29 am ((PST))
The recent link to Fith was very enlightening and fun.
stevo </HTML>
Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/
<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
