There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Reflexive & Reciprocal Marked on the Verb
From: John Vertical
1b. Re: Reflexive & Reciprocal Marked on the Verb
From: Matthew
1c. Re: Reflexive & Reciprocal Marked on the Verb
From: Herman Miller
1d. Re: Reflexive & Reciprocal Marked on the Verb
From: Lars Finsen
1e. Re: Reflexive & Reciprocal Marked on the Verb
From: Philip Newton
1f. Re: Reflexive & Reciprocal Marked on the Verb
From: Matthew
1g. Re: Reflexive & Reciprocal Marked on the Verb
From: René Uittenbogaard
1h. Re: Reflexive & Reciprocal Marked on the Verb
From: Eldin Raigmore
2a. Re: Double minimal pairs
From: Herman Miller
2b. Re: Double minimal pairs
From: J R
2c. Re: Double minimal pairs
From: Herman Miller
3a. Re: "Knock it off" or "Leave off"
From: andrew
3b. Re: "Knock it off" or "Leave off"
From: Mark J. Reed
4a. Re: Consecutives like Hebrew's "waw-consecutives" in your 'langs
From: Jim Henry
4b. Re: Consecutives like Hebrew's "waw-consecutives" in your 'langs
From: Eldin Raigmore
4c. Re: Consecutives like Hebrew's "waw-consecutives" in your 'langs
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
5a. Re: Fourth Persons
From: Eldin Raigmore
5b. Re: Fourth Persons
From: Jim Henry
6a. TECH: "best" way to organize directory of conlangs
From: Rick Harrison
6b. Re: TECH: "best" way to organize directory of conlangs
From: David J. Peterson
6c. Re: TECH: "best" way to organize directory of conlangs
From: Jim Henry
6d. Re: TECH: "best" way to organize directory of conlangs
From: Sai Emrys
6e. Re: TECH: "best" way to organize directory of conlangs
From: Rick Harrison
6f. Re: TECH: "best" way to organize directory of conlangs
From: Rick Harrison
7a. Re: Invented Languages receives its ISSN
From: Sai Emrys
Messages
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1a. Re: Reflexive & Reciprocal Marked on the Verb
Posted by: "John Vertical" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Sep 2, 2008 1:10 pm ((PDT))
>I am collaborating on an agglutinating conlang with polypersonal agreement
>(verbs agree with their Subject; with their Primary-or-Direct Object if
there is
>one; and sometimes with their Secondary-or-Indirect Object if there is one.)
>
>In this 'lang the verb's agreement-markers indicate the semantic role of the
>Subject and the Direct Object.
>
>One thing it can indicate is that the Subject, and/or the Object, is both the
>Agent and the Patient of the clause.
>
>Thus, if the clause is reflexive or reciprocal, no additional marking is
needed to
>establish that it must be EITHER reflexive OR reciprocal.
>
>However, this system can't tell "reflexive" apart from "reciprocal".
This seems to be a problem I might face too. My (currently nameless) loglang
project has similar detail'd argument marking, except by means of multiple
cases.
Two observations: the singular is unambiguous; and in plurals involving more
than two, there's a possibility for yet finer distinctions, eg. pairwise /
circular / communal reciprocity (tho I can't think of a verb which would
allow distinguishing the latter two senses in a non-contrived way; most seem
to be suited just for one or the another).
Verbal voice works here too to resolve at least the basic situation, but I
aim for no voice marking whatsoever. Focusing on number seems to provide
another solution. Suppose I had a collectiv form distinct from a regular
plural (it happens I alreddy have this same distinction with conjunction);
then I could simply proceed in any possible case as in "the cattle takes
care of itself" (collectiv reciprocal) vs. "the cows take care of
themselves" (plural reflexiv).
John Vertical
Messages in this topic (12)
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1b. Re: Reflexive & Reciprocal Marked on the Verb
Posted by: "Matthew" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Sep 2, 2008 6:30 pm ((PDT))
Eldin Raigmore wrote:
> How do your 'langs (whether nat- or con-) handle this?
> Do they just not distinguish "reflexive" from "reciprocal"?
> Do they distinguish it by marking the verb with, say, a "voice"
> or "version" of "reflexive" or "reciprocal" (not the same)?
> Or do they mark the difference elsewhere in the clause, say by either a
> reflexive pronoun or a reciprocal pronoun or both?
>
I know that French sometimes uses the number agreement to disambiguate,
but I can't think of a context right now.
I know for sure it doesn't use it to disambiguate for reciprocity vs
reflexivity though because
*nous s'embrassons
*nous nous embrasse
Even though I can't recall I know for sure you could use number to
disambiguate.
na suset mi kao : me and my spouse kiss each other
we kiss+PL my spouse (act as one)
na sus mi kao : me and my spouse kiss ourselves
we kiss+SG my spouse (act separately)
na : we
sus : kiss
-et : plural marker
mi : my
kao : spouse
Messages in this topic (12)
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1c. Re: Reflexive & Reciprocal Marked on the Verb
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Sep 2, 2008 9:15 pm ((PDT))
Eldin Raigmore wrote:
> I am collaborating on an agglutinating conlang with polypersonal agreement
> (verbs agree with their Subject; with their Primary-or-Direct Object if there
> is
> one; and sometimes with their Secondary-or-Indirect Object if there is one.)
>
> In this 'lang the verb's agreement-markers indicate the semantic role of the
> Subject and the Direct Object.
>
> One thing it can indicate is that the Subject, and/or the Object, is both the
> Agent and the Patient of the clause.
>
> Thus, if the clause is reflexive or reciprocal, no additional marking is
> needed to
> establish that it must be EITHER reflexive OR reciprocal.
>
> However, this system can't tell "reflexive" apart from "reciprocal".
>
> That is, "Jack and Jill (each) kissed themselves" and "Jack and Jill kissed
> each
> other" have the same agreement-markers on the verb.
>
> How do your 'langs (whether nat- or con-) handle this?
> Do they just not distinguish "reflexive" from "reciprocal"?
> Do they distinguish it by marking the verb with, say, a "voice"
> or "version" of "reflexive" or "reciprocal" (not the same)?
> Or do they mark the difference elsewhere in the clause, say by either a
> reflexive pronoun or a reciprocal pronoun or both?
Tirelat: "Each other" is expressed by a comitative particle.
"Themselves" is expressed with a prefix on the verb.
su Żak kë Żil vyċimamin "Jack and Jill kissed each other" (inferential)
su Żak kë Żil vy- ċima-mi-n
NOM Jack COM Jill 3pl.NOM-kiss-IP-PF
(Lit. "Jack kissed with Jill.")
NOM = nominative
COM = comitative
IP = inferential past
PF = perfective
su Żak žu Żil vysċimamin "Jack and Jill (each) kissed themselves"
su Żak žu Żil vy- s- ċima-mi-n
NOM Jack and Jill 3pl.NOM-REFL-kiss-IP-PF
REFL = reflexive
Messages in this topic (12)
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1d. Re: Reflexive & Reciprocal Marked on the Verb
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 3, 2008 1:18 am ((PDT))
Den 2. sep. 2008 kl. 20.03 skreiv Michael Poxon:
> Omina has a reflexive suffix -kse which can be combined with a
> conjugated preposition to give the idea of reciprocity:
>
> Using enki "hit":
> enki irekse = "They hit themselves" (i.e., A hits A, B hits B)
> enki irekse 'rea = "They hit each other" (i.e., A hits B, B hits
> A), using the preposition e ("across, over") which takes the
> locative case, thus literally "They hit across them")
Let me check how Urianian does this.
I think the r-mood of the verb, which I'm not sure what to call yet,
will be perceived as reflexive by default in the singular, but
reciprocal in the plural. Thus, blegurem (hit-rform-3p.past) means
"they hit each other". In the plural you have to add something to get
the reflexive, probably the pronoun ef, "both", or biln, "all". Efa
blegurem - they (2) hit themselves, with the pronoun in the accusative.
As for Suraetua, it has the j-marker that makes verbs reflexive. Thus
aut ijunji means "they hit", but jaut ijunji means "they hit
themselves". Here, the intransitive auxiliary is used. If you use the
transitive auxiliary, jaut janjinje, it becomes reciprocal, "they hit
each other".
LEF
Messages in this topic (12)
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1e. Re: Reflexive & Reciprocal Marked on the Verb
Posted by: "Philip Newton" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 3, 2008 1:29 am ((PDT))
On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 03:30, Matthew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I know that French sometimes uses the number agreement to disambiguate, but
> I can't think of a context right now.
> I know for sure it doesn't use it to disambiguate for reciprocity vs
> reflexivity though because
> *nous s'embrassons
> *nous nous embrasse
Neither of those looks like grammatical French to me.
Are you sure those are the correct forms?
(I thought that "s'" was only used with third person subjects, and
that the verb must always agree with the expressed subject.)
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (12)
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1f. Re: Reflexive & Reciprocal Marked on the Verb
Posted by: "Matthew" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 3, 2008 4:28 am ((PDT))
Philip Newton wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 03:30, Matthew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> I know that French sometimes uses the number agreement to disambiguate, but
>> I can't think of a context right now.
>> I know for sure it doesn't use it to disambiguate for reciprocity vs
>> reflexivity though because
>> *nous s'embrassons
>> *nous nous embrasse
>>
>
> Neither of those looks like grammatical French to me.
>
> Are you sure those are the correct forms?
>
> (I thought that "s'" was only used with third person subjects, and
> that the verb must always agree with the expressed subject.)
>
> Cheers,
>
Neither of them are grammatical French, hence the asterisk of
*ungrammaticissity
*I good dog get go
I went and got a good dog
The grammatical sentence would be :
nous nous embrass-ons
we ourselves kiss-1PL.PRS.IND
and your kinda right, s' is used with grammatical third persons (note
that in many dialects /on/ is a first person semantically but a third
person grammatically. on dors : someone is sleeping / we are sleeping. )
thus :
*nous m'embrassons (first person singular reflexive, where there should
be a plural)
*nous nous embrasse (verb agrees with the wrong number).
My point was that French /didn't/ work the way I suggested in that
context, it only uses number to disambiguate in something to do with the
pronoun "leur", but damned if I can remember which meaning, or what
construction :(
Messages in this topic (12)
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1g. Re: Reflexive & Reciprocal Marked on the Verb
Posted by: "René Uittenbogaard" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 3, 2008 6:08 am ((PDT))
I asked my francophone friends some time ago, they gave me the following:
Ils se regardent.
They look at each other.
Ils se regardent dans le miroir.
They look at themselves (!) in the mirror.
I suppose you could disambiguate to some extent by using "l'un l'autre":
Ils (se?) regardent l'un l'autre.
They look at each other.
But maybe a real francophone can elaborate on this.
René
Messages in this topic (12)
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1h. Re: Reflexive & Reciprocal Marked on the Verb
Posted by: "Eldin Raigmore" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 3, 2008 10:44 am ((PDT))
Well, it looks like I asked at least one _good_ question!
Thanks, René Uittenbogaard, Matthew, Philip Newton, Lars Finsen, Herman
Miller, John Vertical, Aidan Grey, and Michael Poxon.
Messages in this topic (12)
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2a. Re: Double minimal pairs
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Sep 2, 2008 9:12 pm ((PDT))
Mark J. Reed wrote:
> "Don't let this happen to you. Order your Phonomatic(TM) Random
> Syllable Generator today, and keep your posteriori out of your a
> priori languages."
;-) one method I've used successfully to avoid English bias (or
anti-English bias for that matter) is to manually create a bunch of
words without meanings, then randomly assign meanings to them. A few of
the Tirelat words were assigned this way, including "kiv" meaning "cave"
and "ret" meaning "reptile". I never would have chosen words so similar
to English, but that sort of coincidence isn't entirely unexpected.
Tirelat has fewer randomly-assigned words than some of my other langs,
but some of them have become well-established, e.g.
ċakni "rich, wealthy"
drambi "sand" (later expanded to include "(ground) pepper")
kezyl "plant" (n.)
kinež "cup"
kwëna "to hear"
luġi "holy, sacred"
maraat "basket"
miłwi "soon"
mizu "onion"
nirik "cheese"
nusu "silent"
sënt "bone"
šmaj "always"
šuuru "door"
tadru "much"
taka "there"
tipa "to enter"
turma "hammer"
vaasa "lid, cover"
xiłki "planet"
zaaxĕn "cellar"
Messages in this topic (7)
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2b. Re: Double minimal pairs
Posted by: "J R" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 3, 2008 1:42 am ((PDT))
On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 7:00 AM, Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mark J. Reed wrote:
>
>> "Don't let this happen to you. Order your Phonomatic(TM) Random
>> Syllable Generator today, and keep your posteriori out of your a
>> priori languages."
>>
>
>
> ;-) one method I've used successfully to avoid English bias (or
> anti-English bias for that matter) is to manually create a bunch of words
> without meanings, then randomly assign meanings to them. A few of the
> Tirelat words were assigned this way, including "kiv" meaning "cave" and
> "ret" meaning "reptile". I never would have chosen words so similar to
> English, but that sort of coincidence isn't entirely unexpected.
>
> Tirelat has fewer randomly-assigned words than some of my other langs, but
> some of them have become well-established, e.g.
>
> ċakni "rich, wealthy"
> drambi "sand" (later expanded to include "(ground) pepper")
> kezyl "plant" (n.)
> kinež "cup"
> kwëna "to hear"
> luġi "holy, sacred"
> maraat "basket"
> miłwi "soon"
> mizu "onion"
> nirik "cheese"
> nusu "silent"
> sënt "bone"
> šmaj "always"
> šuuru "door"
> tadru "much"
> taka "there"
> tipa "to enter"
> turma "hammer"
> vaasa "lid, cover"
> xiłki "planet"
> zaaxĕn "cellar"
>
Do you accept all of the random pairings, or will you reject ones that
strike you as really off? Personally, I haven't used any random methods, and
wouldn't, except perhaps in very small doses (Mark's catchy advert
notwithstanding!). It kind of takes the con- out of conlanging for me. If I
want randomness, I'll look at a natlang :-)
Josh Roth
Messages in this topic (7)
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2c. Re: Double minimal pairs
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 3, 2008 7:08 pm ((PDT))
J R wrote:
> Do you accept all of the random pairings, or will you reject ones that
> strike you as really off? Personally, I haven't used any random methods, and
> wouldn't, except perhaps in very small doses (Mark's catchy advert
> notwithstanding!). It kind of takes the con- out of conlanging for me. If I
> want randomness, I'll look at a natlang :-)
>
> Josh Roth
With Tirelat I've accepted only a few of the random pairings. Some of
the earlier languages, like Zharranh, kept a larger number of the random
assignments.
Messages in this topic (7)
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3a. Re: "Knock it off" or "Leave off"
Posted by: "andrew" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 3, 2008 12:53 am ((PDT))
On Tue, 02 Sep 2008, ROGER MILLS wrote:
> Scotto Hlad wrote:
> >One of my cats, Daria, (the only one not spayed because I’ve run out
> > of money) is in oestrus. If you never been around a cat in this
> > condition consider yourself lucky.
>
> I had an unspayed female for a while; the first time she went into
> oestrus I kept her in, but it drove me crazy... I was talking on the
> phone one day with a friend in NYC, she yowled and he asked, Roger,
> is there a baby in your house? (knowing full well that was an utter
> impossibility). The 2nd and 3rd times, she got out, and produced two
> beautiful litters; then she got lost :-(((((
>
> >Anyway, I have found myslef just looking at her and saying, “Give it
> > a rest…” or “Knock it off…” or “Leave off.”
>
> A losing battle, no?
>
despite living with a 12-year old spayed tabby as southern spring is
coming on she is getting decidedly 'bouncy', including sitting in my
lap as I type.
> >I’d like to know how to convey this message to my cat in your
> > conlangs and your L1, including regional type things.
>
> I'm surprised there's nothing at the moment in Kash, but using the
> simple negative imperative particle "yanda!" 'don't' would come
> close. One might also say yándati (+2nd pers.), yándapo ('just...')
> or maybe stronger yándaka, adding the imperative suffix.
I thought that Brithenig was going to be similar with the bare negative
command, Calf! or Calfath! Then I thought I better check a dictionary.
Apparently Welsh has a phrase and I can adopt it into Brithenig:
Dun ill myliwr per lle! lit. Give the best for it!
So I am learning something. Conlanging broadens the mind :)
--
Andrew Smith -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --
http://hobbit.griffler.co.nz/homepage.html
"If you are gonna rebell you have to wear our uniform."
Messages in this topic (8)
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3b. Re: "Knock it off" or "Leave off"
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 3, 2008 7:31 am ((PDT))
On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 3:53 AM, andrew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So I am learning something. Conlanging broadens the mind :)
qo'mey poSmoH Hol. :)
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (8)
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4a. Re: Consecutives like Hebrew's "waw-consecutives" in your 'langs
Posted by: "Jim Henry" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 3, 2008 10:58 am ((PDT))
On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 12:41 PM, Eldin Raigmore
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I am thinking of a clause-chaining feature like Hebrew's "wa-consecutives".
>
> I am imagining four clause-conjunctions (conjunctions that connect clauses
> with the meaning "and").
Would you use a similar set of quartets for various other conjunctive
notions? "Or", "nor", "if", "that", "then", "while", etc.? Or use some
other particle plus one of the four basic and-conjunctions for all
more complex conjunctions? Or use basic non-quartet conjunctions
for those other notions, and use a different means to mark switching
of voice, mood, aspect, tense, & polarity?
> TAM) How common is it for a 'lang to fuse Tense, Aspect, and
> Modality/Mode/Mood? Does your 'lang?
It's all over the place in IE langs; not sure how common it is
outside the IE family. I think none of my langs fuse them,
though maybe a couple of my early artlangs for which I've
lost my detailed notes did so. One artlang project that's
been on the back burner has agglutinative aspect and
mood that might become fusional after some more sound
changes.
Volapük fused aspect and tense, but marked mood and
voice separately; Esperanto fuses tense and mood, but
marks aspect separately. One possible analysis might
be that aspect and voice are tangled up in E-o, though
not fusionally per se. Most of the other auxlangs and
engelangs I'm familiar with mark all those optionally
and separately with adverbial particles, as does my
gzb.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
Messages in this topic (4)
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4b. Re: Consecutives like Hebrew's "waw-consecutives" in your 'langs
Posted by: "Eldin Raigmore" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 3, 2008 11:18 am ((PDT))
On Wed, 3 Sep 2008 13:58:36 -0400, Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Would you use a similar set of quartets for various other conjunctive
>notions? "Or", "nor", "if", "that", "then", "while", etc.? Or use some
>other particle plus one of the four basic and-conjunctions for all
>more complex conjunctions? Or use basic non-quartet conjunctions
>for those other notions, and use a different means to mark switching
>of voice, mood, aspect, tense, & polarity?
I have just begun considering those questions, and haven't made up my mind
yet.
"Or" and "nor" especially need to be considered just as you've mentioned.
"If", "that", and "then", may presuppose a change in mood/mode/modality.
Or, "then" might, instead, presuppose a change in tense.
"While" basically means "and". I think it presupposes that tense and mood are
the same. It's ordinarily used to conjoin two clauses of different aspect; one
perfective (e.g. punctual) and one imperfective (e.g. durative). It may
presuppose that polarity is the same as well. I don't think it makes any
assumptions about voice, though.
>> TAM) How common is it for a 'lang to fuse Tense, Aspect, and
>> Modality/Mode/Mood? Does your 'lang?
>
>It's all over the place in IE langs; not sure how common it is
>outside the IE family. I think none of my langs fuse them,
>though maybe a couple of my early artlangs for which I've
>lost my detailed notes did so. One artlang project that's
>been on the back burner has agglutinative aspect and
>mood that might become fusional after some more sound
>changes.
>
>Volap?ed aspect and tense, but marked mood and
>voice separately; Esperanto fuses tense and mood, but
>marks aspect separately. One possible analysis might
>be that aspect and voice are tangled up in E-o, though
>not fusionally per se. Most of the other auxlangs and
>engelangs I'm familiar with mark all those optionally
>and separately with adverbial particles, as does my
>gzb.
>--
>Jim Henry
Thanks.
Messages in this topic (4)
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4c. Re: Consecutives like Hebrew's "waw-consecutives" in your 'langs
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 3, 2008 12:26 pm ((PDT))
Hallo!
On Wed, 3 Sep 2008 13:58:36 -0400, Jim Henry wrote:
> > TAM) How common is it for a 'lang to fuse Tense, Aspect, and
> > Modality/Mode/Mood? Does your 'lang?
>
> It's all over the place in IE langs; not sure how common it is
> outside the IE family.
I think Georgian does so, too.
What regards my own conlang Old Albic, the tense/aspect/mood
markers are monofunctional and mostly agglutinative, but
tense is only distinguished in the imperfective indicative,
while the perfective indicative (aorist) and the two
subjunctives (imperfective and perfective) do not distinguish
tenses.
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. Re: Fourth Persons
Posted by: "Eldin Raigmore" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 3, 2008 11:01 am ((PDT))
On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 10:50:28 -0700, Aidan Grey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>The Obviative isn't limited to HAS or Direct/Inverse systems. It can appear in
>almost any language.
Thanks.
I knew that Hierarchical Alignment languages and Direct/Inverse Voice
languages are not co-extensive.
Now I also know that obviatives can appear in other languages.
But the name "obviative" comes from the fact that it "obviates" confusion in
bivalent clauses with both participants animate third-person in such languages.
>You also have to be clear exactly what you mean by Obviative - there are a
>number of uses/definitions, IIRC.
What are some of the other uses and definitions?
>If it's just "other third persons", it's pretty common in Native American
>languages, used for non-focus arguments. For example, in a tale about
>Coyote, every third person other than Coyote would be in the 4th. That's
>one use, anyway.
Which non-Hierarchical non-Direct/Inverse North American languages does it
have such a use in?
>The "indefinite" combined with the Obviative is pretty common.
Thanks. I didn't know that, and that answers one of my questions.
What are some languages that have both the obviative and the indefinite-
person?
>I don't know what you mean in #3 and 4, so I can't speak to that.
If you want to know I can tell you.
Logophoric Pronouns are so named because in certain African languages when
you are reporting speech, you have two extra third-person pronouns, one for
the person whose speech you are reporting ("logophoric first person"), and one
for the person who was originally addressed ("logophoric second person").
Long-Distance Reflexives can co-refer to the _Subject_ of _any_ containing
clause.
Some reflexives can co-refer to any _clause-mate_ higher in the Noun-Phrase
Accessibility Hierarchy (Subj > (Dir)Obj > IndObj > Obl > Possessor > Obj of
Comparison) that has previously been mentioned; but cannot co-refer to
anything outside their own clause. That is, for instance, such a reflexive in a
subordinate clause cannot refer to a participant in its matrix clause nor in
the
main clause; but if it's in the IO position it can refer to the DO, or if it's
in an
Oblique position it can refer to the DO or the IO; (that is it's not restricted
to
referring to the Subject).
Long-Distance Reflexives, OTOH, can refer to the subject of the matrix clause,
of the matrix's matrix, ..., up to the subject of the main clause; even if the
clause the LDR actually occurs in, is very deeply embedded.
>Aidan
Thanks, Aidan.
Messages in this topic (4)
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5b. Re: Fourth Persons
Posted by: "Jim Henry" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 3, 2008 11:06 am ((PDT))
On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 12:36 PM, Eldin Raigmore
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 1. Indefinite pronouns (e.g. "one" in English, "en" in French);
I think you mean "on" in French. Also "oni" in Esperanto,
{�} in gzb.
> 3. Long-Distance Reflexives (or L.D. Anaphora) in languages that have
> them.
> 4. Logophoric Pronouns in languages that have them.
I wasn't able to find much about these terms by googling them;
I've added them to the list of requested articles on linguistics
at Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_articles/Social_sciences
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. TECH: "best" way to organize directory of conlangs
Posted by: "Rick Harrison" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 3, 2008 12:10 pm ((PDT))
I want to establish/instigate a directory of all known conlangs. Someplace
where I can see if the name I'm about to give my project has already been
used... or, if I suddenly remember Vling and get a nostalgic urge to find
its documentation, get a link to it. Just a brief description with links for
each language. Preferably each description would be written in English and
Esperanto so as not to exclude nonanglophones.
The question is, should I do this as a static webpage, similar to what
Richard Kennaway used to do, or a wiki? And if a wiki, should I host it on a
domain that I control (thus possibly incurring a lot of bandwidth expense),
or use a free/affordable wiki hosting service? Wikis give me the
heebie-jeebies because they can easily become dominated by their most
aggressive/obsessive users, but maybe in this situation I have to consider
that option.
Messages in this topic (6)
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6b. Re: TECH: "best" way to organize directory of conlangs
Posted by: "David J. Peterson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 3, 2008 12:46 pm ((PDT))
I realize that Langmaker has been down for awhile, but
mightn't one contact Jeffrey Henning first to see how
permanent its status is before reinventing the wheel?
-David
*******************************************************************
"sunly eleSkarez ygralleryf ydZZixelje je ox2mejze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
On Sep 3, 2008, at 12�10 PM, Rick Harrison wrote:
> I want to establish/instigate a directory of all known conlangs.
> Someplace
> where I can see if the name I'm about to give my project has
> already been
> used... or, if I suddenly remember Vling and get a nostalgic urge
> to find
> its documentation, get a link to it. Just a brief description with
> links for
> each language. Preferably each description would be written in
> English and
> Esperanto so as not to exclude nonanglophones.
>
> The question is, should I do this as a static webpage, similar to what
> Richard Kennaway used to do, or a wiki? And if a wiki, should I
> host it on a
> domain that I control (thus possibly incurring a lot of bandwidth
> expense),
> or use a free/affordable wiki hosting service? Wikis give me the
> heebie-jeebies because they can easily become dominated by their most
> aggressive/obsessive users, but maybe in this situation I have to
> consider
> that option.
Messages in this topic (6)
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6c. Re: TECH: "best" way to organize directory of conlangs
Posted by: "Jim Henry" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 3, 2008 2:08 pm ((PDT))
On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 3:10 PM, Rick Harrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I want to establish/instigate a directory of all known conlangs. Someplace
> where I can see if the name I'm about to give my project has already been
> used... or, if I suddenly remember Vling and get a nostalgic urge to find
> its documentation, get a link to it. Just a brief description with links for
> each language. Preferably each description would be written in English and
> Esperanto so as not to exclude nonanglophones.
Good idea. I'd volunteer to translate some of the descriptions into E-o.
> The question is, should I do this as a static webpage, similar to what
> Richard Kennaway used to do, or a wiki? And if a wiki, should I host it on a
I would suggest finding one of the conlang wikis that already has a
moderately extensive list of conlangs, and a fairly large and active
community of users/editors, and take that list and work on making
it a lot more extensive. Maybe FrathWiki or the Conlang Wikia;
I'm not familiar enough with all the other conlang wikis to compare
them intelligently.
The Conlang Wikia has a longish but still very incomplete list here:
http://conlang.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_conlangs
I think FrathWiki has a list too but I couldn't connect to it just now.
The Talideon wiki seems to be having problems at the moment
too. If KneeQuickie has a list of conlangs, I couldn't find it linked
from the front page.
The Conlang Atlas of Language Structures is really spiffy
but maybe overkill for what you want. Still, you could put some work
into adding and expanding entries for older conlangs if
Taliesin has fixed the defect with the add-language button.
http://cals.conlang.org/
And, as David said, let's try to find out if Langmaker is down
permanently or not before starting something new of the same
kind.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
Messages in this topic (6)
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6d. Re: TECH: "best" way to organize directory of conlangs
Posted by: "Sai Emrys" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 3, 2008 2:32 pm ((PDT))
On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Rick Harrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The question is, should I do this as a static webpage, similar to what
> Richard Kennaway used to do, or a wiki? And if a wiki, should I host it on a
> domain that I control (thus possibly incurring a lot of bandwidth expense),
> or use a free/affordable wiki hosting service?
FWIW: The LCS can fully host any such project for free, including all
server costs and domain name.
You would have a separate DreamHost account for this, including full
SSH / SFTP / domain-modification control (non-root, though, since it's
a shared server). MediaWiki is one of the available drop-in packages,
and is fairly simple to install.
Managing / administering / etc the site itself would be completely up to you.
Let me know if you want me to set this up for you.
- Sai
Messages in this topic (6)
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6e. Re: TECH: "best" way to organize directory of conlangs
Posted by: "Rick Harrison" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 3, 2008 2:42 pm ((PDT))
On Wed, 3 Sep 2008 17:08:03 -0400, Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>And, as David said, let's try to find out if Langmaker is down
>permanently or not before starting something new of the same
>kind.
I contacted Jeffrey with an offer of assistance many months ago. (The offer
still stands.) However, I have to create a somewhat different database to
serve as the foundation of a book I'm planning to write.
Messages in this topic (6)
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6f. Re: TECH: "best" way to organize directory of conlangs
Posted by: "Rick Harrison" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 3, 2008 2:46 pm ((PDT))
On Wed, 3 Sep 2008 14:32:01 -0700, Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>FWIW: The LCS can fully host any such project for free, including all
>server costs and domain name.
Thanks for the offer, Sai. I will consider it.
Messages in this topic (6)
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7a. Re: Invented Languages receives its ISSN
Posted by: "Sai Emrys" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 3, 2008 2:36 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 9:50 AM, Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 12:03 PM, Lars Finsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Den 2. sep. 2008 kl. 17.46 skreiv Jim Henry:
>>>
>>> The LoC have a humongous underground section extending a good
>>> distance in each direction from the above-ground visible part, IIRC.
>>
>> Interesting. Is it accessible to the public?
FWIW, (nearly?) all of LoC's collections is available to anyone in the
US via inter-library loan, with the proviso that LoC materials are
never allowed to leave the premises.
When I was researching for my conlangs class at Berkeley, I got lots
of stuff via ILL - once, it was an evidently rather obscure
publication of an Esperanto congress, and that came from the LoC.
- Sai
Messages in this topic (9)
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