There are 20 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Nonhuman features: birdspeak
From: Nikolay Ivankov
1b. Re: Nonhuman features: birdspeak
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
1c. Re: Nonhuman features: birdspeak
From: George Corley
1d. Re: Nonhuman features: birdspeak
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
1e. Re: Nonhuman features: birdspeak
From: Padraic Brown
2a. Barsoomian language, Tolkien Names.
From: John H. Chalmers
2b. Re: Barsoomian language, Tolkien Names.
From: Nikolay Ivankov
3a. Re: Stranded w
From: And Rosta
4. CHAT: Just a Little Outside Help
From: J. M. DeSantis
5a. Re: NATLANG: Middle English pronunciation of digraph/diphthong OU/OW
From: And Rosta
6a. Roger Mills
From: Roger Mills
6b. Re: Roger Mills
From: Carsten Becker
6c. Re: Roger Mills
From: p...@phillipdriscoll.com
6d. Re: Roger Mills
From: Tony Harris
6e. Re: Roger Mills
From: Ph. D.
7. OT Syllable structure, German
From: Peter Collier
8. Construct & Copula
From: Logan Kearsley
9a. Chat: A New Lang is Born
From: Virginia Keys
9b. Re: Chat: A New Lang is Born
From: Jim Henry
10. Re: A New Lang is Born
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
Messages
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1a. Re: Nonhuman features: birdspeak
Posted by: "Nikolay Ivankov" lukevil...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 6:51 am ((PST))
On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 12:26 AM, Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- On Wed, 2/29/12, Nikolay Ivankov <lukevil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Well, several years ago I played with an idea of a humanoid
> > race
> > using radio waves for communication. Not particularly new
> > thing, but still.
> > To be honest, I've became interested in birds because of a
> > conculture of
> > humans that - by an idea of my co-autor - were supposed to
> > sing their language.
>
> Ah. Opera!
>
Yup. Space opera.
>
> > To make the things even worse, I proposed to make many vowels,
> > many tones and only 2 real consonants: voiced glottal stop
> > and voiced
> > bilabial click. So, in fact, the tongue was used only to
> > make high/low
> > vocals, which is almost nothing.
>
> Well, makes remembering all the consonants easy-peasy!
>
> > Thus, if their word for speech had
> > something to with the organs, then it would be cognate
> > rather with "throat"
> > or "lips" than with "tongue".
>
> Sure, thought we'd just call it a language anyway.
>
Well, right, because the word language has already lost its connection with
the tongue, at least in English. But we are writing in Russian, and
therefore need to use the word 'язык'. I know that it's unavoidable, but
still feel some discomfort. I'd be much more convenient to use something
like 'Sprache' or 'idioma', but we have just what we have.
>
> > However, an analogy with birds would
> > inevitably come to mind if the language is designed this
> > way, therefore my question.
> >
> >
> > > If your bird-people communicate in a roughly analagous
> > way to us, whether
> > > or not they use or even have tongues, they're using
> > language. I have some
> > > bird-people in the World, but I know nothing at all
> > about how they talk
> > > or what their languages are like. I suspect it's quite
> > different than the
> > > other speaking races, who are mostly hominids of some
> > sort. How much effort
> > > is made in understanding each other is also an open
> > question -- perhaps
> > > they decided long ago that communication just wasn't
> > possible and that if
> > > complete annihilation of the blundering oafs on the
> > other side isn't
> > > practical, then studied avoidance might be best...
> > >
> >
> > In the human-populated conworld in which the culture I've
> > been talking
> > about lives the races went so far from each other, that some
> > of them are
> > just unable to hear what the others say - just like chimps
> > do not really
> > hear the human speech, because they ears are tuned for
> > higher frequencies.
> > So they had to invent an interlingua that is entirely
> > written. Well, an
> > idea of an entirely written language came first, of course.
>
> Now, that's interesting! Two peoples that not only have to try and figure
> out each other's language, but can barely hear each other!
>
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dullhunk/6727743913/
> > By the way, can I read something of your fiction?
>
> Sure! I don't have much online. A little bit is here:
> http://www.frathwiki.com/The_World
>
> There's some snippets of a couple languages as well as some examples of
> music from the World, which I think actually turned out pretty well. I
> should put some images as well...
>
> A couple short stories set in the World are in a short story collection I
> wrote, Theatre of the Mind (Chris Brown), available at Amazon or Lulu.
> Otherwise, quite a lot of articles and snippets can be found here in the
> archives of Conlang or else Conculture.
>
> > > Can always use their own word for that colour.
> >
> > Right, that's what is done sometimes. [...]
> > Still, introducing a new notion may be quite a task for the
> > reader - one
> > may end up with a text, that is becoming more and more
> > unintelligible.
>
> This is certainly a risk -- but it is a risk to bring before an audience
> ány work of fiction where the world is not Earth and the people are not
> humans. This is where the writer has to make choices about how to present
> an alien world and alien peoples. How much is too much, sort of thing.
>
> > Though, my problem was that mine were unintelligible from
> > the very beginning.
>
> A harder task for you to make sense for the rest of us -- but I think quite
> often more rewarding for the intrepid reader!
>
> > At least, the author have an ark of refuge for their ideas:
> > appendices. I
> > was really quite surprised to learn that Frodo and Bilbo
> > were in fact Froda
> > and Bilba, and the final -a was replaced by -o only not to
> > make a gender confusion.
>
> I wasn't aware of that! Though it makes sense -- -a is the typical
> MASCULINE ending in Germanic languages, derived from PIE -o; while -a
> is the typical Latin/Romance FEMININE ending. We've (in English) quite
> forgotten our -a stem masculines, while names or things in -a are almost
> universally interpreted as feminine based on our contact with Italian
> and Spanish.
>
My wife has pointed me on this in the Appendix. Perhaps, the Common Speak
was more Germanic in nature than Sindarin. And, well, in Slavic -a in
proper names is used for both masculine and feminine - the deft examples
are the shortenings of the names in the 'Wilfila' manner: with Sasha,
Zhen'a and Val'a being used for both Alexander/Alexandra,
Yevgeniy/Yevgeniya and Valentin/Valentina respectively. But LOTR was
already thought to be read by a wide auditorium, so the changes in the
names.
>
> > In the internet era the authors are not even dependent on the
> > publishers: if a publisher is to greedy to waste paper on a
> > seemingly
> > unimportant crap, the author can just place the appendix on
> > a personal
> > website and feel her or his duty to the conworld fulfilled.
>
> Or one can simply go over the publisher's head by self-publishing. This
> way the author has and keeps total control over the content.
>
> > I find it really encouraging.
>
> It is indeed. Even though the down side is an almost frightening array
> of self published pseudo-academic books of questionable content...
>
> > > Well, in the heat of battle, what's important is
> > communicating things like
> > > "you lot run towards that lot and kill as many of the
> > bastards as you can"
> > > or "run away!" Niceties of grammatical mood or person
> > or fiddly adjectives
> > > would only get in the way. A distinct bugle or fife
> > tune that has a
> > > definite meaning is indeed part of the language.
> > >
> >
> > Well, you do not need a train to get to the kitchen. Yet,
> > you'd consider the train if the kitchen you need is in another city.
>
> Or you can simply avail yourself of the dining car!
>
> > Tamtams in Africa
> > were the most efficient way to communicate in the jungle -
> > so the
> > "language" became complex enough to inform everyone about
> > the death of George IV.
>
> Indeed! A sort of sonic telegraph.
>
> > Were drums and bulge the only way to transfer information in a
> > complex society, I think we could have had a blare-tabored
> > love poetry within decades, centuries at most.
>
> Perhaps sooner! The history of trumpets and drums, especially kettle drums,
> in the modern orchestra is intimately connected with the bugles and
> drums of the army and the noble households of Europe. It didn't take long
> to go from a purely martial idiom to instruments quite capable of tender
> melodic playing.
>
> > > > And I'm afraid this gives me an idea...
> > >
> > > Oh dearie me!
> > >
> > > Ideas can be dangerous things...you be careful there! :)
> >
> > No panic! I've already forgotten it ^)
>
> Well, I hope you can find it again! I was curious to find out what it was!
>
Well, the obvious answer would be: to make people communicate with drum and
flute, but this won't be a conworlder's answer. For I'm not a fan of such
comedia absurda where an author introduces any feature she or he likes just
because "it is her/his vision". I need a logical explanation, and for now I
can't find it. Because in the ocean or in the mountains visual signals are
much more convenient, and in the town it's enough to make several kinds of
bell tunes to gather people and tell what's going on just with a loud
voice. If the information is to be transmitted on a wide range, it should
at best be possible for a single man to operate the gadget - therefore the
best choice seem to be either drum, or bell, or a big horn, but not drum
and flute, since their sound will definitely be not as loud as the sound of
a tamtam alone. Though, of course, I'm not that sure. But...
Say, a secret music-language of wandering troubadours. To make it even more
secret, with the information conducted only by a chosen one or pair
instruments in the orchestra, and the singer may simultaneously sing about
something completely different. Here the language may become pretty much
abstract, and there is a good chance that in a little while it would be
used for offtopic things by some members of the guild - in particular, for
the aforementioned love lyrics.
Kolya
Padraic
>
> > Kolya
>
Messages in this topic (15)
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1b. Re: Nonhuman features: birdspeak
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 6:12 pm ((PST))
On 2 March 2012 15:50, Nikolay Ivankov <lukevil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> My wife has pointed me on this in the Appendix. Perhaps, the Common Speak
> was more Germanic in nature than Sindarin. And, well, in Slavic -a in
> proper names is used for both masculine and feminine - the deft examples
> are the shortenings of the names in the 'Wilfila' manner: with Sasha,
> Zhen'a and Val'a being used for both Alexander/Alexandra,
> Yevgeniy/Yevgeniya and Valentin/Valentina respectively. But LOTR was
> already thought to be read by a wide auditorium, so the changes in the
> names.
>
>
>From what I know, the Common Speech (called Westron, in the language itself
Adûni) was a descendant of Adunaic, the Mannish language of Númenór. Like
its ancestor, it seems to have had a triconsonantal root structure not
unlike that found in Semitic languages, so in any case it wasn't in any way
Germanic-like :) .
It seems the -a ending was an agentive ending, but also a simple masculine
ending (at least in the Hobbit dialect). -o and -e were feminine endings.
And by the way, while Bilbo's original name in Hobbit Westron was indeed
Bilba, Frodo's was *not* Froda. It was actually *Maura*. Probably another
case of etymological backformation, going back to the ancestor language,
translating the word *there* into Old English, and then make it evolve
again towards Modern English. It's the same method as with the word
_Hobbit_, from Old English _holbytla_ "hole-dweller", paralleling the
Westron word *kuduk*, from archaic *kûd-dûkan* with the same meaning.
When Tolkien said he translated all the Westron words into English, he was
not kidding about it! :P
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (15)
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1c. Re: Nonhuman features: birdspeak
Posted by: "George Corley" gacor...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 6:30 pm ((PST))
Wait, so all this stuff you're talking about is detailed somewhere, and
Tolkien came up with Westron names that virtually no readers would ever
encounter?
On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 9:11 PM, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <
tsela...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2 March 2012 15:50, Nikolay Ivankov <lukevil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > My wife has pointed me on this in the Appendix. Perhaps, the Common Speak
> > was more Germanic in nature than Sindarin. And, well, in Slavic -a in
> > proper names is used for both masculine and feminine - the deft examples
> > are the shortenings of the names in the 'Wilfila' manner: with Sasha,
> > Zhen'a and Val'a being used for both Alexander/Alexandra,
> > Yevgeniy/Yevgeniya and Valentin/Valentina respectively. But LOTR was
> > already thought to be read by a wide auditorium, so the changes in the
> > names.
> >
> >
> From what I know, the Common Speech (called Westron, in the language itself
> Adûni) was a descendant of Adunaic, the Mannish language of Númenór. Like
> its ancestor, it seems to have had a triconsonantal root structure not
> unlike that found in Semitic languages, so in any case it wasn't in any way
> Germanic-like :) .
>
> It seems the -a ending was an agentive ending, but also a simple masculine
> ending (at least in the Hobbit dialect). -o and -e were feminine endings.
> And by the way, while Bilbo's original name in Hobbit Westron was indeed
> Bilba, Frodo's was *not* Froda. It was actually *Maura*. Probably another
> case of etymological backformation, going back to the ancestor language,
> translating the word *there* into Old English, and then make it evolve
> again towards Modern English. It's the same method as with the word
> _Hobbit_, from Old English _holbytla_ "hole-dweller", paralleling the
> Westron word *kuduk*, from archaic *kûd-dûkan* with the same meaning.
>
> When Tolkien said he translated all the Westron words into English, he was
> not kidding about it! :P
> --
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
>
> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
> http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
>
Messages in this topic (15)
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1d. Re: Nonhuman features: birdspeak
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 6:44 pm ((PST))
On 3 March 2012 03:29, George Corley <gacor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Wait, so all this stuff you're talking about is detailed somewhere, and
> Tolkien came up with Westron names that virtually no readers would ever
> encounter?
>
>
Yes. Don't forget: for Tolkien, the languages were primary, the stories
just a necessary backdrop, so that there would be a place for those
language to be actually spoken. He didn't really care whether readers would
ever have access to his conlangs (in fact, he went out of his way to ensure
the casual reader *wouldn't*), since he created them for his own
edification.
That said, I'm not sure Tolkien ever developed the Mannish languages much.
Westron, in particular, seems to have been little more than a naming
language, at least compared to the Quendian languages.
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (15)
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1e. Re: Nonhuman features: birdspeak
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 8:50 pm ((PST))
--- On Fri, 3/2/12, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <tsela...@gmail.com> wrote:
> From what I know, the Common Speech (called Westron, in the
> language itself
> Adûni) was a descendant of Adunaic, the Mannish language of
> Númenór. Like
> its ancestor, it seems to have had a triconsonantal root
> structure not
> unlike that found in Semitic languages, so in any case it
> wasn't in any way Germanic-like :) .
Interesting, and I guess therein lies my confusion! I had gotten into my
head that Westron was Germanic-like, when in fact it's not but has been
"translated".
> It seems the -a ending was an agentive ending, but also a
> simple masculine
> ending (at least in the Hobbit dialect). -o and -e were
> feminine endings.
> And by the way, while Bilbo's original name in Hobbit
> Westron was indeed
> Bilba, Frodo's was *not* Froda. It was actually *Maura*.
> Probably another
> case of etymological backformation, going back to the
> ancestor language,
> translating the word *there* into Old English, and then make
> it evolve
> again towards Modern English. It's the same method as with
> the word
> _Hobbit_, from Old English _holbytla_ "hole-dweller",
> paralleling the
> Westron word *kuduk*, from archaic *kûd-dûkan* with the
> same meaning.
>
> When Tolkien said he translated all the Westron words into
> English, he was
> not kidding about it! :P
I guess not!! Does he ever say (explicitly) anywhere why he does this
translation thing? Why not just tell a (necessarily backgrounded) story
about Kudduks named Bilba and Maura?
Padraic
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
Messages in this topic (15)
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2a. Barsoomian language, Tolkien Names.
Posted by: "John H. Chalmers" jhchalm...@ucsd.edu
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 9:18 am ((PST))
Does anyone recall an earlier attempt to create a Barsoomian language,
say 10-20 years ago? I recall seeing it on one of the internet lists,
but I can't find any trace of it now, either on the net or in my notes.
Unfortunately, I lost a lot of back-up disks in a flood in my office a
few years ago and apparently the file was on one the damaged disks.
As for the names Bilba and Froda, it seems that there are Germanic
masculine names in -o, such as Otto, Bodo, Odo, etc. I'm not sure of the
origin of Hugo and Udo--possibly Italian or French? BTW, IIRC, there
was a politician in Texas whose last name was Bilbo some years ago.
--John
Messages in this topic (2)
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2b. Re: Barsoomian language, Tolkien Names.
Posted by: "Nikolay Ivankov" lukevil...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 10:10 am ((PST))
On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 6:17 PM, John H. Chalmers <jhchalm...@ucsd.edu>wrote:
> Does anyone recall an earlier attempt to create a Barsoomian language, say
> 10-20 years ago? I recall seeing it on one of the internet lists, but I
> can't find any trace of it now, either on the net or in my notes.
> Unfortunately, I lost a lot of back-up disks in a flood in my office a few
> years ago and apparently the file was on one the damaged disks.
>
> As for the names Bilba and Froda, it seems that there are Germanic
> masculine names in -o, such as Otto, Bodo, Odo, etc. I'm not sure of the
> origin of Hugo and Udo--possibly Italian or French? BTW, IIRC, there was a
> politician in Texas whose last name was Bilbo some years ago.
As for the politician, he may have been of Basque origin, named by the name
of the city Bilbo, more widely known as Bilbao.
> --John
>
Kolya
Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: Stranded w
Posted by: "And Rosta" and.ro...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 9:35 am ((PST))
Peter Collier, On 27/02/2012 00:35:
> A quick straw poll:
>
> I have a RomLang where some elision of final vowels could leave me with word
> final /kw/. This is a phonotactic no-no, but I can't decide which way to go
> with that stranded /w/. I could vocalise it to /U/, or I could just drop it
> and leave the bare /k/.
>
> Whither?
The stranded /w/ is realized as [w] when it can form the onset of a following
vowel-initial word, and as zero otherwise.
--And.
Messages in this topic (6)
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4. CHAT: Just a Little Outside Help
Posted by: "J. M. DeSantis" j...@jmdesantis.com
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 10:06 am ((PST))
Conlang List,
On an off-topic note, I recently entered my artwork into the 3rd Ward
Open Call art competition. There are a few prizes to win, but I'm really
trying to get the People's Choice Award. The thing is, this award is
based completely on outside votes. So I'm asking all of you if you could
show your support for your fellow conlanger and take a minute to visit
the link below. It's simple. Just click VOTE in the upper right and then
LIKE when the box appears (of course, you have to have a Facebook
account to do it). If you don't click both VOTE and LIKE, the vote
doesn't count.
http://jmdesantis.artistswanted.org/opencall2012w
Thank you everyone, for your support. This will go a long way toward
moving my career forward, and also, somewhat indirectly, allow me to
finish my conlangs with ease. All the best.
--
Sincerely,
J. M. DeSantis
Writer - Illustrator
Website: jmdesantis.com <http://www.jmdesantis.com>
Figmunds: figmunds.com <http://www.figmunds.com>
Game-Flush (A Humorous Video Game Site): game-flush.com
<http://www.game-flush.com>
Messages in this topic (1)
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5a. Re: NATLANG: Middle English pronunciation of digraph/diphthong OU/OW
Posted by: "And Rosta" and.ro...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 10:21 am ((PST))
Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro, On 25/02/2012 22:53:
> Below is an idea I had:
Something's buggered the table. Maybe separate columns using spaces rather than
tabs?
> 4. Four lexical sets were suppressed: BATH, LOT, PUT and THREW. They
> were suppressed because they are pronounced as one lexical set in some
> dialects and as another in others, e.g. BATH is suppressed due to PALM and
> LAD, LOT due to CLOTH and THOUGHT, PUT due to STRUT and FOOT, and THREW
> due
> to GOOSE and CUTE. The solution for these suppressed lexical sets would be
> different orthografies depending on the dialect, like nowadays happens
> with
> color/colour, gray/grey and jail/gaol;
That is unavoidable, yes.
> 6. I can't verify if NORTH would be a rhotic equivalent to CLOTH or to
> THOUGHT;
Do you mean "LOT or THOUGHT"? It's not a matter of verification; it's a matter
of your analysis and your orthographic scheme.
> 10. UE is also a possible orthography, that could be in GOOSE lexical
> set, but only in the end of the word (TR*UE*);
I might have some of the sets popularized by Wikipedia wrong, but I'd have
thought (10) applies to CUTE rather than GOOSE.
> 11. A friend of mine told me that alC when l became /w/, and then /aw/
> became /ɔ/ could be associated to THOUGHT lexical set, so that ALL, WALK
> and TALK would keep its spelling istead of becoming AUL, WAUK and TAUK.
_Pal_ /pal/, _talc_ /talk/.
> I still have some problems, the main ones are:
>
> 1. Demonstrate which vowels are reduced and which are not, without
> changing their orthography or using diacritics;
> 2. Separate digraphs from diphthongs. Using diaresis, like in French?
> "naïve"?
> 3. How to write words with stress in a syllable that is not the first
> one?
Initial syllable is not the default position for stress.
> And how to write words with secondary stress?
If you are marking reduced vowels and primary stress, then you don't need to
mark secondary stress.
Also, if you're marking reduced vowels, then location of primary stress becomes
quite highly predictable, so you could mark it only when it is in nondefault
place. (The degree of predictability depends on whether the prediction rules
have access to morphological information rather than just phonological.)
--And.
Messages in this topic (6)
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6a. Roger Mills
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 2:25 pm ((PST))
Hi, Roger has been transferred to a Re-Hab home here in Holland. I thought I'd
give you his address and phone number in case you would like to get in touch
with him. Roger Mills, Freedom Village, 145 Columbia, Room #2200, Holland,
Michigan 49423. His phone number is: 1-616-820-7765. Thanks and take care, Kim
Messages in this topic (5)
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6b. Re: Roger Mills
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" carb...@googlemail.com
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 3:11 pm ((PST))
Hm, I wonder whether Roger knows about his address and phone number and
stuff appearing here, publically readable on the internet, or whether his
friend who's posting these updates about his recovery is aware? I was just
wondering whether he might be happy about conlangy get-well-soon cards.
Carsten
Messages in this topic (5)
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6c. Re: Roger Mills
Posted by: "p...@phillipdriscoll.com" p...@phillipdriscoll.com
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 3:33 pm ((PST))
Carsten Becker wrote:
> Hm, I wonder whether Roger knows about his address and phone number and
> stuff appearing here, publically readable on the internet, or whether his
> friend who's posting these updates about his recovery is aware? I was just
> wondering whether he might be happy about conlangy get-well-soon cards.
Is that really a problem? I mean, this is not his regular residence
address and probably not his regular telephone number. How
likely is someone to use this information maliciously?
Most peoples' addresses are pretty easy to find. I had to mail
Roger some paperwork a few years ago, and I was able to find
his residence address on line.
--Ph. D.
Messages in this topic (5)
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6d. Re: Roger Mills
Posted by: "Tony Harris" t...@alurhsa.org
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 4:06 pm ((PST))
I do think it would be cool if we sent him conlang get well cards. If he has
his own language online it would be even cooler to include a translation in
that.
Carsten Becker <carb...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>Hm, I wonder whether Roger knows about his address and phone number and
>stuff appearing here, publically readable on the internet, or whether his
>friend who's posting these updates about his recovery is aware? I was just
>wondering whether he might be happy about conlangy get-well-soon cards.
>
>Carsten
Messages in this topic (5)
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6e. Re: Roger Mills
Posted by: "Ph. D." p...@phillipdriscoll.com
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 5:53 pm ((PST))
Tony Harris wrote:
> I do think it would be cool if we sent him conlang get well cards. If he has
> his own language online it would be even cooler to include a translation in
> that.
>
I believe Roger's languages are here:
http://cinduworld.tripod.com/contents.htm
--Ph. D.
Messages in this topic (5)
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7. OT Syllable structure, German
Posted by: "Peter Collier" petecoll...@btinternet.com
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 4:39 pm ((PST))
Can anyone confirm what the maximal syllable is for German? CCCVCCCC
("Strumpfs") is ringing a bell from the dim and distant past, but I'm far
from certain. In addition to that, are there any constraints on the
consonants similar to the old 'muta cum liquida' from Latin?
Messages in this topic (1)
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8. Construct & Copula
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" chronosur...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 6:34 pm ((PST))
I just had a lot of ideas from a lot of widely varied sources all come
together and spontaneously generate a really nice bit of grammar, and
thought I'd share the thought process.
First, the grammar of Halkomelem I've been reading defines basic word
order as Predicate-Argument, where predicates are not limited to
verbs; this allows for a single rule to encompass regular VSO
sentences, and N-N and N-Rel sentences with a zero copula, where the
NP is interpreted as acting as the predicate. That then reminded me of
"Nominal Predication and Focus Anchoring"
(http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/ealc//chinling/articles/predication.pdf),
in which it is proposed that all NPs are actually predicative in
nature, and they become arguments only when dominated by some other
kind of phrase, like a determiner. That alone could be an interesting
idea to exploit in a conlang.
So, I've had the idea of nominal predicates floating about in my mind,
and then more recently I've been thinking a lot about construct and
absolutive states, thanks to the recent thread on Reverse Genitive,
and bemoaning the fact that I couldn't find any reasonable way to work
a construct state into Mev Pailom without horribly contradicting /
breaking other bits. But then, thanks to responses to my question on
how to handle nominals in a verb-heavy language, I got thinking about
how to handle compounds in an unambiguous way, and realized that a
structure like "dog house" as contrasted with "dog's house" or "house
of dog" would be a perfect place to make use of a special construct
state that would mesh nicely with everything else that's already in
the corpus.
'
At that point, I realized that the idea of construct state indicating
that a noun does not form an independent syntactic unit works very
well with the idea from "Nominal Predication" that bare NPs are
predicates- it's like special morphological marking for "hey, I'm not
directly dominated by a determiner!" Ergo, I can make my construct
state do double duty as the head of a compound noun, or as the
predicate in a copular sentence, which perfectly resolves an annoyance
that there was previously no locus for attachment of verbal (or
perhaps I should now say predicative) morphology in zero-copula
constructions, so one had to use periphrastic constructions with other
verbs to, e.g., state negatives.
And thus I end up with a new system where the same affix serves to
mark both what look like a noun compound and a denominal verb
derivation, both of which are explained by manipulating the syntax to
produce a bare NP.
I will now be only mildly surprised, and actually quite delighted, if
someone now tells me that A Natlang Actually Does This, And Worse.
-l.
Messages in this topic (1)
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9a. Chat: A New Lang is Born
Posted by: "Virginia Keys" virginiak...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 9:37 pm ((PST))
I mentioned a while ago that I was working on a lang with a 2d writing
system. Well, I think it has finally gotten off the ground :) It's
definitely not much yet, but I'm excited. For a long time I was worried
about whether a particular structure was 2d enough, but I think I've
relaxed and decided to let it be what it lends itself to and learn from it.
I'd like to show you examples of my first few sentences, but I'm not sure
how to make images available to you all since they aren't on any website.
If you know how to do this simply, please tell me. Thanks!
Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: Chat: A New Lang is Born
Posted by: "Jim Henry" jimhenry1...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 11:06 pm ((PST))
On 3/3/12, Virginia Keys <virginiak...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'd like to show you examples of my first few sentences, but I'm not sure
> how to make images available to you all since they aren't on any website.
> If you know how to do this simply, please tell me. Thanks!
You can't attach image files to messages sent to this mailing list.
The best thing to do, I suppose, is post the images to any of several
sites that let you post images for free -- Flickr is the best known,
but Ipernity and Snapfish come to mind, as well as
http://pics.conlang.org. The latter site is hosted by the LCS, but
you don't have to be an LCS member to post conlang-related images
there.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
Messages in this topic (2)
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10. Re: A New Lang is Born
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2012 9:56 pm ((PST))
I'm blind, a description would best for me.
Nicole Andrews
Pen name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
Tweet me
@greenNovelist
----- Original Message -----
From: "Virginia Keys" <virginiak...@gmail.com>
To: <conl...@listserv.brown.edu>
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 12:37 AM
Subject: Chat: A New Lang is Born
>I mentioned a while ago that I was working on a lang with a 2d writing
> system. Well, I think it has finally gotten off the ground :) It's
> definitely not much yet, but I'm excited. For a long time I was worried
> about whether a particular structure was 2d enough, but I think I've
> relaxed and decided to let it be what it lends itself to and learn from
> it.
> I'd like to show you examples of my first few sentences, but I'm not sure
> how to make images available to you all since they aren't on any website.
> If you know how to do this simply, please tell me. Thanks!
Messages in this topic (1)
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