"One of the reasons an ex of mine hated contra dancing was that she'd fully
internalized the step-between-the-feet thing in foxtrot, one step, waltz,
etc, and if you try to do that in a contra swing the results are somewhere
between unsatisfactory and actively dangerous."

I don't swing with feet-between-the-feet with most people, but with some
it's just what feels right, and it can work very well.

Jeff

On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 7:00 PM Winston, Alan P. via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Katherine --
>
> I think that the way you were doing the ballroom swing before you modified
> it is not how most of the rest of us do it, and that this in itself
> produces some of the problems your modification solves.
>
> I'm sure under the impression that the 'standard' ballroom swing [*] has
> the robin's arm on top
>
> Here's a video (from the East Coast) whcih sure looks to me (from the West
> Coast) like how we do it out here.
>
> https://youtu.be/lQ0R5iHT-l8?si=OYKTgBXg0dLyKQza
>
> (Of course there has to be some adjustment for height difference, and you
> don't want a tall person having to bend way forward and then support a
> short person or a short person getting their shoulders stretched by
> reaching way up; your modification (robin's hand goes on upper arm rather
> than shoulder blade) is sometimes the best solution for height differences
> even when the default hold is 'standard' as shown in the video.
>
> Please try the 'standard' hold with your husband and see if it's any
> better for you that what you were using..  And then we can at least all be
> talking about the same thing.
>
> I say "some of the problems" because I think the appropriate solution for
> creepy dancers lies in counseling or ejecting them rather than in changing
> the hold, because creepy guys gonna creep regardless of the hold.  It's
> really only a solution for people who are dancing too close for comfort and
> don't realize it, and I think the solution for that is for people they are
> making uncomfortable to either tell them or tell management and have
> management tell them.
>
> I  don't see why in either hold anybody should be grabbing you by the
> waist.  I also think that there's going to be some irreducible minimum of
> innocent / unintended boob and butt grazes, especially among unsure dancers
> - the chances of a new dancer in a courtesy turn having their
> behind-the-back hand in an unexpected place and the other person, trying to
> take that hand (which they can't even see, by the way)  is going to end up
> putting their hand on hip, waist, or butt.;  Do you want to change the
> courtesy turn hold to avoid that?  Because you don't have to interoperate
> with other dances, you could change the courtesy turn hold into a
> hands-in-front promenade hold and avoid that risk)
>
> On a pedantic note, I've been having trouble understanding the hold before
> you posted the picture, because "modified ballroom swing" is, as I recall,
> what Larry Jennings ("Zesty Contras", "Give and Take") called what we've
> been calling the ballroom hold because it's a modification of the position
> for ballroom dances like waltz and polka, that modification being that the
> inside of the feet being square-on to partner, or slightly offset so that
> you intentionally step between your partner's feet; when you're in the
> ballroom-dance hold, of course to rotate you alternate stepping forward and
> stepping backward.  Modified to fully offset, you both step forward the
> whole time.
>
> (One of the reasons an ex of mine hated contra dancing was that she'd
> fully internalized the step-between-the-feet thing in foxtrot, one step,
> waltz, etc, and if you try to do that in a contra swing the results are
> somewhere between unsatisfactory and actively dangerous.)
>
> Anyway, as a result, the arm that goes to the partner's shoulderblade is
> necessarily stretched to some degree across the front of your partner's
> body - more stretched if your and your partner's feet are further apart,
> less stretched if they're closer together - and it's much easier for that
> arm to contact the front of the partner's body somewhere in the boob area
> than it is n a square-on ballroom hold.
>
> As far as I can tell -having only fairly-small man boobs -  you can manage
> to reduce the impact by adjusting the angle at which partners are facing
> and how close your the right side of your right foot is to the right side
> of theirs.  All the stuff that you'd naturally want to do to avoid
> unintended forearm-boob interaction is, counterintuitively, unhelpful so
> long as you're keeping the shoulder contact  - you want to keep your
> distance so you keep your feet further away, and that changes the angle,
> reducing the clearance between arm and boob.  Or you want to pull the
> shoulder near the grazed boob back -recoil from the touch, or whatever -
> and that also makes it worse because it changes the angle and brings more
> boob surface into contact with the arm.  Counterintuitively, adjusting
> things so that the pointy-end side is farther apart helps by increasing
> clearance on the blunt-end side where the boob contact is happening because
> it brings you closer to square-on, reducing the arm-boob a
>  ttack surface.
>
> -- Alan (hoping this doesn't completely come across as mansplaining)
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2024 2:27 PM
> To: Katherine Kitching
> Cc: Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers
> Subject: [Callers] Re: Modified ballroom swing position: seeking more
> conversation and info
>
> Sorry everyone - I am clearly not the global authority on this hold, just
> yet!! :D
>
>  I just tested this out at home with my (life) partner and realized
> something unexpected-
>
> In the case of me and my partner dancing, it was actually better for both
> of us if his arm went below mine even though he is taller-  I guess because
> he is taller, his upper arm is also longer, so somehow it still made sense
> for my arm to go on top. (If anyone thinks they can better explain the
> physics/physiology of this, be my guest!)
>
> Anyhow we got a photo - he is camera-shy and made me crop out his face,
> but I think you can view it here - let me know if any issues.
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0
>
> Let's call this hold a "work in progress" from us at Halifax Contra
> Dances- seems we are still sorting out some details!! :)
>
> Kat K
> Katherine Kitching<mailto:k...@outdooractive.ca>
> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 6:09 PM
> whoops whoops!! sorry, correction on that.
>
> the photo on Jeff's page shows the arms that are closest to the viewer, in
> the photo, in a similar position to what my group has been using.
>
> But I just noticed the dancer's other arms are not hand-in-hand, like my
> group does it.
> Darn :)
>
> We would still have Lark's Left hand in Raven's Right hand.
>
> KK
>
>
>
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