I was curious about John's "The shoulder-blade connection is purely to counteract centrifugal force. That is not normally a lot of force, so it shouldn’t make you tired." above. While ideally you could measure this, I don't think swinging with a scale between your hand and partner's back and your hand would be comfortable, and it would be hard to read. Let's try a bit of physics.
If you like to swing quickly you might go 4.5x around in twelve beats, which is 45rpm at a tempo of 120bpm. Let's guess the people each weigh 150lb and approximate them as point masses two feet apart. Doing some math: r = 1ft m = 300lb ω = 45rpm = 0.75 hz v = ω2πr = 0.75 hz * 2π * 1ft = 4.7 ft/s F = mv^2/r = 300lbm * (4.7 ft/s)^2 / 1ft = 300lbm * 23ft / s^2 = 6662lbm * ft / s^2 1lbf = 32.17 lbm * ft / s^2 1lbm = 0.0311 lbf * s^2 / ft F = 6662 lbm * ft / s^2 = 6662 * 0.0311 lbf = 207lbf This says you need ~216lb of force to hold the dancers together! If you're rotating more slowly, perhaps 2.5x in twelve beats, it's still a significant 64lb. Jeff PS: If you want something you can play with, this is (rpm/3 * 3.14)**2 * weight * 1/32.2 On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:08 PM Jeff Kaufman <jeff.t.kauf...@gmail.com> wrote: > Here's a 1989 recording the Portland OR dance did in a recording studio: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o_qLQUH-7k . I see almost all "outer > arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back, lady's left hand > behind gent's shoulder" hold (hereafter 'ballroom' though as illustrated > above that's a fraught term). At 0:58 and then again at 1:28, 1:58, 3:02 > etc there's a couple with a symmetrical hold where they each have their > right hand around the other's waist, with their left hands joined low in > the center. I didn't watch the whole video, so it's possible there were > other couples that did other holds at some point? > > Here's 1987 in Mendocino: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTOKMwrl-7Q . > I only see ballroom holds. > > Here's 1986 in Cambridge MA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2-pBs9BY3Q > . Outdoor demo performance. Almost all ballroom holds, but at 4:04 the > couple all the way on the right has outer hands in a forearm hold (which > they continue doing in later iterations of the dance). > > Here's 1986 in Francestown NH: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O09f-3yGMuE > At 0:30 I see two ballroom holds and two where the outer arms are holding a > bit above the elbows. At 1:06 I see two ballroom holds, one of the hold > from 0:30, and one of the symmetrical holds I described in the Portland OR > video, though note that this is many of the same couples. Jumping ahead to > 8:38 I see three ballroom holds and where the outer hands hold each other's > forearms. Separately, I really like how enthusiastic the balances are: you > can feel the room shake through to the camera! > > Here's one labeled 1986 Chico Contra: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCYAyEj6jWg Almost all ballroom holds, > except for one couple where the lady's left hand is on the back of the > gent's right arm instead of behind his shoulder (doesn't look comfortable > to me!) > > Here's 1976 in Bloomington: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n2A3955G2w > . Looks like a performance. At 0:10 I see three couples where the outer > hands are joined as in ballroom, the gent's right hand is around the lady's > waist, and the lady's left hand is again on the back of the gent's right > arm. Then there's one couple doing the symmetrical swing with left hands > joined low between their bodies. Same again at 0:44, 1:11, etc. > > Here's 1967 somewhere in New England: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6E1AtqyvFM . I see ballroom at 0:35, > 0:37, 3:15, 3:16, 5:08, 5:10. Then at 1:05 (and then again in the > background at 5:11, and then again at 5:23 and 5:33) I see a forearm hold > with arms that are straighter than I'm used to. At 2:08 I see a hold where > the gents hands are both around the lady's waist and the lady's hands are > both over the tops of the gent's shoulders. > > Here's 1981 in Belmont MA, but it's an hour and I'm going to bed: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdTVkWcehZo > > Jeff > > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 4:33 PM Stein, Robert <ste...@msu.edu> wrote: > >> The 1964 film with Dudley Kaufman calling also shows the same variety of >> swinging styles from ballroom to various barrel holds. >> Bob >> >> > On Mar 26, 2024, at 16:13, Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers < >> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> > >> > Looking through old media to figure out what swing positions were >> common sounds like fun! I think video might be more promising? Here's a >> few annotations of a video, where the numbers are timestamps and each >> bullet describes the couple that's in the middle of the frame at the >> timestamp. I only counted each couple once: >> > >> > Cambridge MA, 1990: https://youtu.be/dC0qQYWjdh0?si=JWkNH0g93yo6VWrC >> > * 3:41: lady's hands behind gent's arms, gent's right hand behind >> lady's back, gent's left hand behind lady's arm >> > * 4:12: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's >> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder >> > * 4:14: outer arms making a point, lady's left hand on gent's shoulder, >> gent's right hand on lady's back >> > * 4:44: outer arms making a point held way out, lady's left hand behind >> gent's shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back >> > * 5:16: outer arms overlapping, inner hands on backs with lady above >> gent >> > * 5:17: outer arms making a point held low, gent's inner hand on lady's >> back, lady's inner hand behind gent's shoulder >> > * 5:18: outer arms making a point and held out, gent's inner hand on >> lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's arm >> > * 5:48: both lady's hands behind gent's shoulders, gent's left hand >> behind lady's elbow, gent's right hand behind lady's back >> > * 5:49: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's >> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder >> > * 5:50: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's >> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder >> > >> > The "outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back, >> lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold, which I think of as the >> standard today, was about half of them, but there was quite a lot of >> variation. >> > >> > I tried to do this with a Fitzwilliam 1975 clip, but there were too >> many cuts. The 1964 video would be another one to try? >> > >> > Jeff >> > >> > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 3:33 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers < >> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> > Responding to various points. >> > And, obligatory acknowledgement that there's always regional >> differences (and, perhaps ultimately that is what this thread is really >> about?) >> > I beg you forgive me for directness, and please assume a friendly tone >> and desire for friendly discussion, as that's what's intended. >> > >> > I just thumbed through two big choreo milestone books marking >> approximately the beginning of the less-1s&2s age of contra - Balance and >> Swing, and Zesty Contras - and absolutely Ted Sanella and Larry Jennings. >> > The short version: despite being contemporaries and the books published >> a year apart (1982 and 1983), they describe slightly different swing holds, >> where: >> > - a gent's right hand is either on the waist on the small of the back >> (Sanella) or a little higher (Jennings, via the illustration on the cover >> which he points out in the description is what to follow) >> > - a gent's left hand is either a typical ballroom palm-up supporting >> the lady's right hand (Sanella) or behind the lady's right upper arm >> (Jennings, with Sanella noting the variation as well) - with a lady's hands >> > - a lady's left hand is resting on the top of the upper arm (Jennings) >> or "behind the upper arm" (Sanella) >> > >> > So even in 1982/1983, there was no agreed traditional swing position, >> and holds described by both did include women holding men in ways that were >> supporting from behind rather than everyone agreeing that their hand is >> "resting on top" as with other couples' dances. >> > Obviously dance evolves over time, and I'll circle back around to that >> after I touch on some specific points: >> > >> > RE: Joe: "They lean back or sideways or press back against the Leftie’s >> supporting right hand." >> > Agree, these are bad habits. The "leaning back" may be describing "the >> feeling of centripetal force", but also I have definitely experienced >> people who lean back. >> > >> > RE: Neal: "both-palms-flat swing ... forces the swing together >> because you are limited to the length of the shorter arm." >> > I don't think this is accurate. >> > This was covered elsewhere in the thread. The shoulderblade isn't >> small, and adjustments can be made to adjust for height or size >> differences. There's always exceptions, sure. >> > Certainly, when I swing young kids, we're not doing shoulderblades. >> Then again, they have a lot less mass than an adult, so there's less >> support that's needed to be given. >> > >> > RE: Neal: " putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re >> going to be on top of me." >> > I agree, however, a good flat-palms swing hold is not in the "middle" >> of the back. There's a gap between shoulderblades, so a hand in the middle >> is partially off the shoulderblade. >> > I like how Lisa Greenleaf describes it as the curve of the hand often >> can naturally curve around the shoulderblade. >> > >> > RE: Neal: " if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms >> are coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in >> collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward." >> > I mean, I suppose, technically speaking? But I think everyone on this >> list here has been dancing for years, and "elbow collisions" isn't a thing >> I've really experienced or heard discussed. >> > So, I conclude that this may in theory be possible, but people just ... >> do it? >> > As a lark/lefthand role, my right arm comes into a swing from a bit of >> an under-scooping motion. As a robin/righthand role, my left arm comes in >> more open and I wait half a moment to let the lark engage their right arm >> before I try and wrap my right arm around. >> > It's similar-ish to the anticipation leading into a good connection on >> a star promenade. >> > >> > Further to this point, if I were using the traditional "woman left arm >> rests on top", I'd have to wait until the lark's arm has engaged, anyway. >> > Which means that traditionally, women have done that extra bit of work >> in the dance of that waiting, reading the other dancer's movement, and >> timing their own move --- and I wonder how much of that had gone unnoticed. >> > >> > This all said, the explanation that you give, Neal, may not work as >> wellwhen it's not taller men dancing with shorter women. >> > Some women are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role. >> > Some men are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role. >> > Some women are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role. >> > Some men are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role. >> > Some men dance with men, some women with women. >> > Etc. >> > >> > So dancing requires a need to adjust our arms to "make a swing work for >> both people" as a universal and generic skill. >> > Thankfully, I think it's one that's actually more automatic than it may >> seem! >> > >> > Regardless of how we discuss the technical and kinesthetic aspects of >> contra, I teach (and I think most callers teach) that dancers need to >> adjust themselves to every partner and neighbor, and find a happy medium >> that works for both people. >> > If someone doesn't want to put their hand flat on my shoulderblade, >> that's fine and I'll adjust by limiting my upper-end swing speed. >> > I think we all share the value that a skilled contra dancer can adjust >> their style to meet another dancer's differences in size, height, ability, >> tiredness, injury, age, etc. >> > >> > In dance, >> > Julian Blechner >> > >> > >> > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:28 AM Neal Schlein <nschl...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > Hi Julian, >> > Regarding both dancers trying to put their palm flat on the other >> persons back, I agree with Joe. >> > >> > The both-palms-flat swing does multiple things. >> > >> > First, it forces the swing together because you are limited to the >> length of the shorter arm. I’m six feet tall with broad shoulders and long >> arms—putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re going to be on >> top of me. I don’t care who I’m dancing with—I want space, and I’m not OK >> with that. With a standard hold, I can give partners lots of space. >> (Also, I sweat from the head a lot. You want that space, and no one wants >> their hand on my back.) >> > >> > Second, if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms are >> coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in >> collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward. This means a >> changed angle for one person, and due to the change in angle a shortening >> of the hold to match the arm that adjusted (usually on top), thereby >> pulling the swing closer together than otherwise necessary…which also puts >> the other person’s arm (typically lark, and also typically longer) in a >> non-natural position, which is likely to be physically uncomfortable and >> potentially harmful. >> > >> > Neal Schlein >> > Librarian, MSLIS >> > >> > >> > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 1:24 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers < >> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> > Hi Joe, >> > >> > You mean, palms flat on the back of shoulderblades? If so, it's how I >> teach it, lots of callers teach it, and this is the first I've heard a >> complaint about it. >> > >> > That said, you describe: "I've had my elbow bent backward by eager >> robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place." >> > >> > That _sounds like_ what I call "arm clamping". While yes, putting >> Robin's hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates the clamping, >> it's not the only way to fix it. A Robin can lift their elbow. (I just >> workshopped the issue with my partner in the living room to test a variety >> of height and holds out to confirm what you were saying, as well.) >> > >> > The other issue is that if both dancers don't have hands flat on the >> backs of each other, it's more difficult to maintain an open frame when >> swinging. One usually winds up _closer_ when hands are resting on >> shoulders, unless one dancer is significantly stronger and the other is >> fairly petite. >> > >> > I know that my right arm will get seriously fatigued and sore if I have >> an evening too many times as Lark with Robins providing insufficient >> support. And I've heard plenty of dancers say similar. >> > >> > That said, all bodies are different. If yours works where the swing >> hold works better for you the way you describe, that is what it is, yeah? >> But I might recommend considering workshopping swings further, because what >> you're requesting is counter to prevailing teaching. If I understand >> correctly (and it's always possible I'm missing something.) >> > >> > In dance, >> > Julian Blechner >> > >> > >> > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024, 1:13 PM Joe Harrington <contradancer...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > Not the standard ballroom, with the robin's arm on top of the lark's, >> but an alternative that I've seen occasionally, but for a number of years >> now, where the robin tries to put their left hand in the same location on >> the lark's back as the lark has their right hand on the robin's back. I >> know at least one prominent caller who teaches this hold in their newbie >> workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need to do this to provide >> equal support in the swing. >> > >> > While I like the principle, the practice can hurt. If the dancers are >> not grossly mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be possible to do this >> without their elbows occupying the same space. I've had my elbow bent >> backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the >> right place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to pain, it pretty much >> eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I "fight back" by >> pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure, essentially >> refusing the position. I'm also focusing entirely on protecting my elbow, >> so it kills any enjoyment in that swing. >> > >> > Please gently discourage this hold. If a robin wants to give major >> support in a swing, the symmetric swing holds, the barrel, the one Jeff >> described, or even a mirror of the ballroom where the lark's arm is on top >> are much better opportunities. A robin whose arm is longer than their >> lark's arm can also reach over or around the shoulder in a ballroom hold >> (robin's arm on top) to add support. Just don't push down on the shoulder. >> > >> > --jh-- >> > >> > >> > On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:21 AM Julian Blechner < >> juliancallsdan...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > JJ, >> > >> > I like your point about the sort of code-switching that the asymmetry >> of a ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one is dancing. >> > >> > Joe, >> > >> > I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom hold having elbows >> occupy the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person or picture). >> That said, it raises the broader issue, which is the overall topic, that >> everyone has different physical needs and finding happy mediums is our goal >> for everyone dancing together. Your issue with ballroom hold handholds as >> such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even seasoned callers - >> can anticipate every need or difference. >> > >> > In dance, >> > Julian Blechner >> > >> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ <jcg...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to "flip the >> switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed to" end on >> (assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If my left >> arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is the >> "pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to consciously tell >> myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle memory just takes over >> and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅. >> > >> > I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on switching roles >> without warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the >> traditional ballroom figure. >> > >> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers < >> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> > "At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's role >> actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the norm." >> > >> > When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember initially >> doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I >> encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I >> ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the >> standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were >> dancing the lady's role in the standard way? >> > >> > Jeff >> > >> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers < >> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> > I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a way >> that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially true if I >> have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to theirs >> (I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without frontal contact if >> one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all that aside, if >> you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more stable than >> ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one. >> > >> > In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's role >> (using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a moment), >> we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", which is >> symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are around >> the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's right arm, >> bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands around >> each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it almost never >> happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady. I'm >> not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a >> particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it first >> and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our >> neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when we >> swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were an >> item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior >> change... >> > >> > In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when >> they're happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and uncomfortable in the >> extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and >> looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't >> returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even though >> it was pretty great in other ways. >> > >> > The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom position >> where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the same >> place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people actually >> teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's terrible, >> because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same >> space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is outside >> mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow, >> eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain >> before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from my >> back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the >> traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop >> teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can hurt >> the lark. >> > >> > One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no >> communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the >> lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending the entire >> length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder to >> provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if they >> are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also light >> enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make for more >> connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder, though. Only >> pull forward. >> > >> > --jh-- >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers < >> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> > At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought about this >> email thread and observations. >> > >> > Short and simple: >> > A "barrel hold" swing: >> > - Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold >> > - One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, with >> his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As we >> engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it guided >> things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced dancer. >> > >> > In dance, >> > -Julian Blechner >> > >> > On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers < >> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> > I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go above the >> lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think that >> having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers to make the >> transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the robin’s arm is >> always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand is >> typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in things >> like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the hand/arm >> orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me if >> I were just learning this swing. >> > Becky >> > >> >> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers < >> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - for >> spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance! Though what I >> think Becky found interesting about the variation we're working on is that >> it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful. >> >> >> >> The one thing that I was confused about when I read your message: you >> say when you tried the swing variation our group has been experimenting >> with (visual at >> https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0 >> ) >> >> -- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms that are >> holding just above the elbow. >> >> >> >> But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with his >> left hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold you use >> in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and her right >> hand.) >> >> Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I intended: >> >> https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198 >> >> Starts at 3:18. >> >> Thoughts? >> >> >> >> Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston - >> >> >> >> Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the hold, >> that in this video referenced by Allan - >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8 or in the photo I shared >> above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the Lark's >> arm? >> >> >> >> Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative >> height of the two dancing partners? >> >> (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin, would the >> Robin's arm still be above the Lark's? >> >> >> >> Thanks all! >> >> Kat K in Halifax >> >>> John Sweeney via Contra Callers >> >>> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM >> >>> Hi Kat, >> >>> Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. When >> you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a >> Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather than >> further apart. >> >>> >> >>> I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty Contras >> and love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a contra >> dance at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it! >> >>> >> >>> We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that it >> really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be enough >> connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. I felt >> that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen felt that it >> was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping - it was just >> awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one. >> >>> >> >>> Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest >> problem is that people are told to "give weight". I don't want your weight! >> People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control their own >> weight then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal force and >> that it not a lot inless you spin really fast. >> >>> >> >>> I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on the >> spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own balance and >> weight. >> >>> >> >>> I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much Repetitive >> Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught badly, and then >> lots of Aerials: https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - >> maybe I shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't >> afford to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing >> at high speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I >> just slow the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take >> their own weight or fall over. >> >>> >> >>> Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you will >> find it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist. >> >>> >> >>> The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem to >> do it without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes some >> getting used to. >> >>> >> >>> Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a Ceilidh >> Swing (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - you >> could always try the Forearm Swing instead ( >> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same principle, >> but further apart so no bodily contact. >> >>> >> >>> Happy dancing, >> >>> John >> >>> >> >>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & >> 07802 940 574 >> >>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >> >>> becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers >> >>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM >> >>> For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies and >> lack of physical air space between them. The huge difference between a >> swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing dance with >> someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing with EVERY >> opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to dance. >> That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than saying >> yes to one person. >> >>> >> >>> As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our group >> a few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their contra dance >> line specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most important >> intervention was, of course, to establish a code of conduct which we used >> to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he would not agree >> to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s always been >> women who have said this to me over the years), when they come to a dance >> not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is asking quite >> a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with whoever comes at them. I >> am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might make contra feel >> safer, especially for new dancers. >> >>> >> >>> I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the >> difference. >> >>> >> >>> Becky >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner < >> juliancallsdan...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom >> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >> >>> Julian Blechner via Contra Callers >> >>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM >> >>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom >> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? >> >>> >> >>> Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our >> minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture? >> >>> >> >>> Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer, >> crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to >> me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space - >> though I wouldn't say the default) >> >>> >> >>> Is it something else? >> >>> >> >>> Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a solution >> to an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail? >> >>> >> >>> In dance, >> >>> Julian Blechner >> >>> He/him >> >>> Western Mass >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >> >> To unsubscribe send an email to >> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >> > To unsubscribe send an email to >> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >> > To unsubscribe send an email to >> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >> > To unsubscribe send an email to >> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >> > To unsubscribe send an email to >> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >> > To unsubscribe send an email to >> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >> > To unsubscribe send an email to >> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >> > To unsubscribe send an email to >> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >> >>
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